Scientology seriously folks!

[jimmy jackson]

Sorry Kidd... The forces were too strong... I will jog on now, gotta see what the missus wants anyway...

 

[wolvesjr34]

I personally, like the extra page from the Bible that was found during an episode of red dwarf.... that basically went along the lines of "dear so and so I hope you enjoy this story of fiction"....

But I don't believe the bible to be completely ficitonal, I believe it is documentation of many events that happened... however I do believe the Church decided to edit the bible to its own devices, including the removal of the teaching of reincarnation for all around 10,000AD (I'm not a religious expert so please correct me if my understanding is wrong).... because if reincarnation exists for everyone, it takes away the power of the Church. It takes away the control over people's 'souls' etcetera because there is another chance to get it right in the next life.

Also I have a real problem with religions and the bible (again not 100% certain on this one) promoting bigotry.

If we are supposed to be all God's children and He/She loves us equally.... why would for instance, loving someone of the same sex... be wrong?

I believe a lot of the things the bible teaches are good teachings. But I think the condemnation of people for having love for other people is wrong. It upsets me to no end and is a big reason why I could never actively be involved in any religion.

 

[JZA]

Christian Faith is different to the english word "faith" or "hope".

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

We're gonna start going in circles now, and I already anticipated your last response that will shut me off- "bottomline is Carlos, you cannot prove to me your faith because I need evidence that will convince me."

So lemme ask you something Jeremy, what do you need to hear to believe in what Christians stand for? Answer would be "nothing". Why? Coz people cannot "come" to the Lord. God decides who gets to have fellowship with him. Everyone who He does not enable to know Him will always reject Him and His truth.

Prove me wrong and say that you believe and of course I'll be very happy.

I cant prove you wrong, thats why these arguments will go on til the end of time. i can offer enough convincing evidence to completely discredit everything you believe in, but it would be fruitless, youd pull out another bible quote and say something about faith. all this just proves one point to me: religion has got nothing to do with basketball cards

so anyway, have fun in heaven and ill drop you a line from the fiery pits of hades

 

[kidd05]

I don't know which religion you are talking about Aj, but it's definetely not Christianity. There never was a teaching about reincarnation, and that last page you are talking about does not exist. You are right though in the sense that the "church" (the Roman Catholic system- not Christian) became a super power, controlling people using their invented system. But that is another issue.

It is an abomination for a person to marry, or have sexual relations with another of the same sex. Why? Because God instituted marriage between man and woman. As simple as that.

Men create their own religion- which suits their wants and needs. That is why religion is man at his lowest. It's man made, and they worship it.

Can I ask people to keep this discussion interesting and educated please. No dirty jokes or stuff like that. If not, this will all go downhill fast, and we might as well lock the thread up.

 

[kidd05]

I cant prove you wrong, thats why these arguments will go on til the end of time. i can offer enough convincing evidence to completely discredit everything you believe in, but it would be fruitless, youd pull out another bible quote and say something about faith. all this just proves one point to me: religion has got nothing to do with basketball cards

so anyway, have fun in heaven and ill drop you a line from the fiery pits of hades

I mean prove me wrong that I can't make you believe.. not prove to me and to everyone that my convictions are wrong. Anyways, I think we both stated enough convincing evidence to achieve their own purpose...

 

[wolvesjr34]

LOL the extra page was at the front and it was from a comedy... I was merely making a joke.

So if God instituted marriage between a man and a woman, why then are there "abominations" that love/marry have sexual relations with members of the same sex? Are homosexuals the work of the Devil?

And I do find it hard that it can be as simple as that.... unless God is a hypocrite? I say this because God is supposed to love us all, but tells us we are sinners if we do not adhere to his many guidelines. And when that comes to love... I just find it hard to swallow. It's okay to love, so long as you love whom God wants you to love? That is the impression I get from what you've said. Please, correct me if I am wrong, I am completely biased by my personal view.

 

[JZA]

I don't know which religion you are talking about Aj, but it's definetely not Christianity. There never was a teaching about reincarnation, and that last page you are talking about does not exist. You are right though in the sense that the "church" (the Roman Catholic system- not Christian) became a super power, controlling people using their invented system. But that is another issue.

It is an abomination for a person to marry, or have sexual relations with another of the same sex. Why? Because God instituted marriage between man and woman. As simple as that.

Men create their own religion- which suits their wants and needs. That is why religion is man at his lowest. It's man made, and they worship it.

Can I ask people to keep this discussion interesting and educated please. No dirty jokes or stuff like that. If not, this will all go downhill fast, and we might as well lock the thread up.

i think you need to think about your faith's views carlos, im pretty sure you wouldnt be so adamant about the evil of homosexuality if a family member or close friend who you cared about admitted to being gay, or even imagine if your son or daughter is homosexual, will you be so quick to call them an abomination, id bet the bank youd still love them more than anything else in the world.

 

[gemini0928]

I want to get into this thread a lot earlier but a bit worried I might offend other members....

I never thought that religion will ever be discussed here. Anyway, I am a Christian and trying my best to live my life the way Christians should be. Its really hard but I am hoping that I will get THERE!!!

"christians are sure of their hope":thats an oxymoron right there. hope is uncertainty; you dont hope for something if your sure about it. a christian who doubts their faith is just one who is thinking logically and independantly, without the influence of others. i know because i was one of those people.

Being a Christian, I believe that there's no way anyone can be certain that he/she will be saved. Being a Christian (a TRUE Christian) you must be able to walk the way of Christ.

Becoming a Christian is easy. You just join some fellowship or church or something like that then you can call yourself a Christian. But if you dont follow Christ teachings and continue to claim you're a Christian, you're just kidding yourself... You should be ashamed... There's a lot of hard work being a True Christian. A lot of sacrifices...

Most churches or assemblies promote/recruit people in a misleading way. A lot are claiming that if you join our church you wil be saved. And most of the time, these people who say it aren't even sure if they will be saved... I believe that a lot of these new Christian assemblies are just bussiness/money driven... Which is a Shame coz they are carrying the tag "Christian". Which makes the whole Christian community look suspicious.

Anyway, let's treat each other here equal... We're here coz we like collecting cards, right?

If we are supposed to be all God's children and He/She loves us equally.... why would for instance, loving someone of the same sex... be wrong?

So if God instituted marriage between a man and a woman, why then are there "abominations" that love/marry have sexual relations with members of the same sex? Are homosexuals the work of the Devil?

And I do find it hard that it can be as simple as that.... unless God is a hypocrite? I say this because God is supposed to love us all, but tells us we are sinners if we do not adhere to his many guidelines. And when that comes to love... I just find it hard to swallow. It's okay to love, so long as you love whom God wants you to love? That is the impression I get from what you've said. Please, correct me if I am wrong, I am completely biased by my personal view.

There's no mention in the bible that "Loviing someone of the same sex is wrong" But in my opinion its just not normal The reason I say that is "how can they reproduce if they are of the same sex?"

 

[wolvesjr34]

i think you need to think about your faith's views carlos, im pretty sure you wouldnt be so adamant about the evil of homosexuality if a family member or close friend who you cared about admitted to being gay, or even imagine if your son or daughter is homosexual, will you be so quick to call them an abomination, id bet the bank youd still love them more than anything else in the world.

Exactly mate.... at least one would hope so.

It is hard for me to watch people be condemned and treated differently for loving another human being. Without love this world would seriously be lacking (even more so than it does) so I think any example of genuine love should be applauded, whether that be the love of a man and a woman, or the love of two women or two men.

And I'm not getting personal, I'm just genuinely curious. I believe in everyone's right to their faith.

 

[kidd05]

So if God instituted marriage between a man and a woman, why then are there "abominations" that love/marry have sexual relations with members of the same sex? Are homosexuals the work of the Devil?

It is the result of sin yes. Remember, when God created the universe and men & women, they were perfect. But because of their disobedience, sin entered the world and corrupted all of us. Now if anyone doesn't believe that God created the universe and the story of Adam and Eve is fiction, therefore refuting that the Bible or parts of it are factual, then again, my defense will be all rubbish to them.

And I do find it hard that it can be as simple as that.... unless God is a hypocrite? I say this because God is supposed to love us all, but tells us we are sinners if we do not adhere to his many guidelines. And when that comes to love... I just find it hard to swallow. It's okay to love, so long as you love whom God wants you to love? That is the impression I get from what you've said. Please, correct me if I am wrong, I am completely biased by my personal view.

That is a huge misunderstanding of the Christian faith, and will ALWAYS remain a mystery to non-Christians. We are not under the law. We do not follow rules on which we are condemned if we break one of them. We are under grace, because we believe. A Christian only does good because he is empowered by God's Holy Spirit once he believes in Jesus Christ and follows Him. We are never forced to live righteous lives. No one is righteous in this world, not even one. But when a person, who confesses that he is a sinner, and in need of a saviour, comes to Christ and believes... he becomes a new creation- hence the term you might be familiar with- "Born Again". This means we are being sanctified, or set-apart, to live as how God wants us to live. Not holy yet in this life, but going towards that direction.

God did said to "love" everyone. But the word love there is not the sexual kind of love (greek word phileo "physical love" or eros "emotonal"), but "AGAPE" love... meaning unconditional sacrifical love. The best description of this is how a mother loves her child.. which still isn't perfect, but you get the idea. So by no means does God tells us to have physical emotional love with everybody. I hope that helps...

 

[wolvesjr34]

There's no mention in the bible that "Loviing someone of the same sex is wrong" But in my opinion its just not normal The reason I say that is "how can they reproduce if they are of the same sex?"

Perhaps not, but most religions teach that. Most people including the Pope... condemn people for it. So there must be some reference somewhere.

I can understand why you would consider it abnormal, and I do appreciate your view that it is abnormal because of the lack of reproduction.

Think about it this way though... the earth is already incredibly over populated. Imagine how much more overpopulated the earth would be if there had never been homosexuals? I think there is a reason for all things.

 

[kidd05]

OK let me say that again... people are not to be condemned. It's the SIN that is to be condemned.

So Jeremy, if I had a child who was homosexual (practicing), I would greatly condemn the sin and set him/her straight... but OF COURSE I would still love him/her and do everything to bring him into a knowledge of the truth.

 

[wolvesjr34]

God did said to "love" everyone. But the word love there is not the sexual kind of love (greek word phileo "physical love" or eros "emotonal"), but "AGAPE" love... meaning unconditional sacrifical love. The best description of this is how a mother loves her child.. which still isn't perfect, but you get the idea. So by no means does God tells us to have physical emotional love with everybody. I hope that helps...

If then, we are to unconditionally love those around us, should we not unconditionally love those that choose/cannot help to love someone physically/emotionally of the same sex?

 

[kidd05]

Being a Christian, I believe that there's no way anyone can be certain that he/she will be saved.

Yes there is... coz if you're not sure, then you're not sure of the power of Christ. Jesus said He is the ressurection. He is life. If you believe in Him, you will be saved. To say that you're not certain that you're saved is saying "Im not sure if Jesus can save me" but I'll believe anyways. Did that make sense?

 

[wolvesjr34]

OK let me say that again... people are not to be condemned. It's the SIN that is to be condemned.

So Jeremy, if I had a child who was homosexual (practicing), I would greatly condemn the sin and set him/her straight... but OF COURSE I would still love him/her and do everything to bring him into a knowledge of the truth.

You wouldn't allow them freedom of choice (or as it is very rarely an active choice the ability to love because they cannot help it)?

I may be misinterpreting, but I do belive by bringing him/her to truth you would mean trying to have them deny who they are. Very few people choose to love/physically interact with someone of the same sex. Should that not be taken into account?

Btw just want to reiterate I am completely calm and more than anything simply curious about your stance.

 

[kidd05]

If then, we are to unconditionally love those around us, should we not unconditionally love those that choose/cannot help to love someone physically/emotionally of the same sex?

Yes we are to love them, but not their sin. Love them to the point where we want to show them that they are living sinful lives. Homosexuality is a sin. Let me know if you want scripture that says this and I'll post it up. If you mean love them as in accept them for who they are and allow them to go on with it, then no. Coz again, it's sin.

 

[wolvesjr34]

Yes we are to love them, but not their sin. Love them to the point where we want to show them that they are living sinful lives. Homosexuality is a sin. Let me know if you want scripture that says this and I'll post it up. If you mean love them as in accept them for who they are and allow them to go on with it, then no. Coz again, it's sin.

I think there is a very important question I have to ask here.

Do you believe the view that homosexuality is a choice... or that (for the most part) homosexuality is something that occurs due to our physical makeup and because of some gene that went wrong?

 

[kidd05]

You wouldn't allow them freedom of choice (or as it is very rarely an active choice the ability to love because they cannot help it)?

I may be misinterpreting, but I do belive by bringing him/her to truth you would mean trying to have them deny who they are. Very few people choose to love/physically interact with someone of the same sex. Should that not be taken into account?

Btw just want to reiterate I am completely calm and more than anything simply curious about your stance.

Exactly. They are to DENY themselves. That is the very essence of being a Christian. Self-denial. Denying your WANTS and the cravings of your flesh.

We don't need a God if we want our freedom of choice. We need a God because we need to know what is right.

And I am calm too.. thanks for the good discussion.

 

[JZA]

Yes we are to love them, but not their sin. Love them to the point where we want to show them that they are living sinful lives. Homosexuality is a sin. Let me know if you want scripture that says this and I'll post it up. If you mean love them as in accept them for who they are and allow them to go on with it, then no. Coz again, it's sin.

that doesnt make sense though, a persons sexuality is an intrinsic part of who they are, it is part of their soul. to condemn the sexuality of someone goes right to the core of who they are as a human being. you cant seperate the two. the whole concept of condemning these people is basically assuming they chose their sexuality, which of course is ridiculous. they were born that way, so how can they be blamed for their sexual preference, it is not a choice.

 

[kidd05]

Good q Aj. Easiest answer I can think of is... if you were a guy... and a very ugly guy.. with absolutely no money.. hehe.. and you want to have sex with a woman but no one wants to be with you... does that give you the right to rape? (btw this will go to premarital sex so I'll say it now that it is a sin too as sex is to be within marriage). Point is, you can fight the lustful desire. Will be almost impossible, but that's where God comes in. Because the only reason you would fight it truly is IF you agree that it's sinful.

Deep and controversial answer would be- Homosexuality is the worst curse that God has put on people.

Romans 1:24-27
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Notice how it starts with "THEREFORE". It's explained in the verses before:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Now, why in the world is God punishing us if He's supposed to be a God of love?