What happens to forum members who rip other members off

A_Iverson_I · Aug 18, 2011

Speaking about this middle man thing...... I don't think it would work for the admins/mods to do it as they already are busy enough with the site and their own lives. If someone was to set something up it would have to be setup as a proper business AND to make profit, not to just "cover costs". Because of this I would say using this company would just be an option, not required, but highly recommended.

Yes, there is the problem of what if the item disappears between the sender and the middleman company..... this could be covered by requiring either registered post/something with tracking and or insurance coverage for the business (which they would obviously need).

Foolish · Aug 18, 2011

if people stuck to the process I think there would be less problems, and I think admin should just make it standard for all sales

If you are a buyer you must use paypal only(you are covered for 45 days from time of purchase) if you do not recieve the card/s put in a claim.

If you are a seller do not send anything out unless it is registered and insured.

as for trades both parties to send via registered postage with proof of sending.

It is when people go outside these 2 simple processes is when things most likely go wrong

Sorry but it has come down to trust no one which is sad to see

Just my 2 cents

graham · Aug 18, 2011

Unfortunately we have trading guidelines/rules and they aren't adhered to now, what makes you think that by making more rules that they will be adhered to as well? My guess is they won't (so what's the point?).

We can only advise what we believe is a way to trade safely and to ensure you cover your ass as best as possible. If they are chosen to be ignored (and they are regularly) we can't do much about that. Just don't expect us to get involved and try and sort out your mess.

Billyhoyle · Aug 18, 2011

and it's always so nice when you try to enforce one of the rules and then you cop a PM of abuse for doing it, people can't adhere to them now, unless we make it insta-ban for breaking any rules some people will always break the laws.

You've got to protect yourself when doing a big trade, or at least don't trade more than you'd be willing to lose!

Heafy83 · Aug 18, 2011

I just wanted to commend the mods on the brilliant job they do here. Everyone has to remember this is nothing more than a hobby for them and us. They make nothing out of it and do it for the love of the hobby. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't have this fantastic site and our experience in the hobby would be less for it. Whilst I don't agree with all the rules and regulations I understand why they are there and hence why I follow them to the letter. These rules have also made this the most secure and safest cards site on the net in my opinion. There will always be those who find the loop holes and bend the rules and you can't prevent every unfortunate event from happening, however I do think because of the current structures a million more have been prevented.
Guess I'm saying I just wanted to say thanks to you guys and that you have my full support

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2011

Foolish said:
if people stuck to the process I think there would be less problems, and I think admin should just make it standard for all sales

If you are a buyer you must use paypal only(you are covered for 45 days from time of purchase) if you do not recieve the card/s put in a claim.

If you are a seller do not send anything out unless it is registered and insured.

as for trades both parties to send via registered postage with proof of sending.

It is when people go outside these 2 simple processes is when things most likely go wrong

Sorry but it has come down to trust no one which is sad to see

Just my 2 cents

Don't like the idea of forcing people to use a dodgy service at all. Have to have more than one option.
See my thread if you haven't read it.

anakinleo · Aug 18, 2011

lilreddevil said:
Only people I would see fit as a middleman would be the admins. And they're quite busy as pointed out many times already.

I understand that the mods and admin are busy people as well. But couldn't they appoint some one else to do that role. Of course that middleman must be a "approved" person and not just anybody. Again thumbs up for the mods and admins on this site for a job well-done but maybe they should be asking for more assistance. Of which I believe other members in the community are more than happy to help. Cheers Alex

tak35bne · Aug 18, 2011

Look I think the idea of a third party has some merit. You would have to look for someone who is available, trustworthy etc and I would set it up like this. Standard trade thread but all 3 parties must agree, seller buyer and other. Both the seller and buyer send their items to the trusted member, If it was me I would set up a PAYPAL account specifically for these transactions. Once the trusted member confirms in the trade/sale thread that both items have been received he/she would then send them to their respected new owners.

Couple of problems:

1. You could only offer this service for Australian residents.
2. Registered post with proof of dispatch using an AUPOST Lodgement Receipt must be used.
3. Then there is the issues of fees / postage for the 3rd party.

There would be other issues that crop up along the way and would have to be explored. When I was working in the ADF we used a document called a Bench Level Instruction (BLI), this BLI would outline the process that must be followed by the seller / buyer / trusted party involved in the transaction. I would be happy to draft one and post to this thread as a discussion document for all to review and with admin approval, we could trial the process of a trade / sale.

The key I think is getting the right person involved as the third party...................any thoughts.

Dave

anakinleo · Aug 18, 2011

I am with you on this Dave, I believe there is a big demand for 3rd party verification just in Australia. Answers to your 3 problems

1. Yes, to start off with, open only to Australian residents. Opening to Internationals Laws will be far to tricky
2. Agreed, an agreed mailing system must be declared to all parties
3. Either seller or buyer (or both) will need to cover cost of 3rd party

There should be a few of us in Brisbane who wouldn't mind chipping in to start up something like this. I am happy to work with you on this idea. Cheers Alex

ooneil · Aug 18, 2011

I think the idea has merit but at the end of the day unless your meeting face to face nothing will be perfect.

The issues i see with a 3rd party are;

1. Trust
2. What happens if the card is sent and does not reach the 3rd party? (who's liable?)
3. What happens if the card is sent by the 3rd party and does not make it to the buyer? (who's liable?)
4. Cost - whats a reasonable cost for someone to chase all these things up, advise other parties, postage etc.....whats your time worth??

Did you paid this guy direct debit Dave?

---------- Post added 18-08-2011 at 11:57 AM ----------

anakinleo said:
I am with you on this Dave, I believe there is a big demand for 3rd party verification just in Australia. Answers to your 3 problems

1. Yes, to start off with, open only to Australian residents. Opening to Internationals Laws will be far to tricky
2. Agreed, an agreed mailing system must be declared to all parties
3. Either seller or buyer (or both) will need to cover cost of 3rd party

There should be a few of us in Brisbane who wouldn't mind chipping in to start up something like this. I am happy to work with you on this idea. Cheers Alex

My only question is what happens if you are the third party and send the card to me but it goes missing. Are you stumping up the value of the card (potentialy $1,000s)? Its a big liability.

ozballer23 · Aug 18, 2011

If the card goes missing to/from the 3rd party, what happens there? I don't want to be responsible in that situation!

Allstar cards inc · Aug 18, 2011

Let's not make this harder than it has to be....common sense goes a long way here.

You only have to look at the Submit Sale and Trade Agreements section of the forum....there is almost 25,000 threads in that forum.....that means almost 25,000 deals have been facilitated by Ozcards (and they only date back to the end of 2008). Now have a think about how many have gone bad in that time....and we hear about most of them....it's a very small percentage.

It comes back to trusting the system that's in place and trusting the person that you are dealing with. If you can't do that, then you will need to make alternative arrangements....make use of the people here on the site to act as a middle man, if you have to, for a one-off high-end deal, send via registered post (this still won't stop someone claiming their package was empty when it arrives as we have had a recent example of)....do whatever it takes to satisfy yourself that the deal will be completed to both parties satisfaction......but be aware that at the end of the day nothing will stop someone from flouting the system if they have that intent......therefore I really don't see the need to change any of the current rules on this site.

Chris_Paul3 · Aug 18, 2011

anakinleo said:
I am getting more amused by the day on this case. Of course, like any detective-minded person (with a lot of ASS-U-ME PTION), you will think that Steve has got this all well planned and has done a great dis-service to the Australian Hobby Community.

I really beg to differ in a way that Steve has done the Australian community a great service by keeping all his "hanky panky" outside the country (Australia). Steve must have dealt with a lot of us ranging from your little transactions to some that could be quite substantial. Personally, my biggest transaction with him is about $400 and I believe there are many more of that size or larger. He could be a ****er and cause lots of misery to multiple collectors in Australia but he did not choose it to be like that. For all the trouble he is in, he made it a point to go as low as profile and "target" one outside Australia.

I am NOT supporting Steve's action but what I meant was that not of us are angels... C'mon you guys have to admit that. Some of us cheat on our partners or spouses. Some of us take sick leave from work when we are not really sick. Some of us neglect our kid or pets at times. Some of us told a white lie sometime in our lifes. We are not proud of it but at least we are human. Again, I am not defending Steve's actions but it just showcased that he is human after all and not an angel.

I just want everybody to put themselves in Steve's shoes and ask yourself what would you have done!!!! Simple equation SELF-PRESERVATION > JUSTICE-SEEKING

Sorry Alex a bit off topic but Graham Shut the other thread down , I just wanted to get your train of thought, Are you condoning what Steve Did due to not doing to Aussies only to internationals and it was self preservation so it's condoned ?

ozballer23 · Aug 18, 2011

Marcus, fully agree with you mate, but you said it yourself. You need to trust the person you're dealing with, think most ppl trusted steve, and look what happened.
Its pure luck. You dont know what can go through a persons mind at any moment.

tak35bne · Aug 18, 2011

ooneil said:
I think the idea has merit but at the end of the day unless your meeting face to face nothing will be perfect.

The issues i see with a 3rd party are;

1. Trust
2. What happens if the card is sent and does not reach the 3rd party? (who's liable?)
3. What happens if the card is sent by the 3rd party and does not make it to the buyer? (who's liable?)
4. Cost - whats a reasonable cost for someone to chase all these things up, advise other parties, postage etc.....whats your time worth??

Did you paid this guy direct debit Dave?

---------- Post added 18-08-2011 at 11:57 AM ----------

My only question is what happens if you are the third party and send the card to me but it goes missing. Are you stumping up the value of the card (potentialy $1,000s)? Its a big liability.

I am not saying its a perfect system (and on the subject of my deal with Shaun, it was bank transfer, he has now been banned which was the original intent of this thread......lol) but with the right 3rd party who is someone who can follow the rules then this could work. Along with Registered Post it would be a must that signature on receipt and insurance is used, yes it is going to cost more and the only real way to look at it is to document what wust be done and then to trial it with a base card to test the process.

Heafy83 · Aug 18, 2011

tak35bne said:
I am not saying its a perfect system (and on the subject of my deal with Shaun, it was bank transfer, he has now been banned which was the original intent of this thread......lol) but with the right 3rd party who is someone who can follow the rules then this could work. Along with Registered Post it would be a must that signature on receipt and insurance is used, yes it is going to cost more and the only real way to look at it is to document what wust be done and then to trial it with a base card to test the process.

System is fine the way it is. 0.01% of all trades have gone bad. It's only bc two long standing members have done a runner recently has this been highlighted. Adding a third person would only complicate things more and who says they wouldn't run off with the cards. One would have thought a member with 600+ FB would never do this, so whos to say the 3rd party wouldn't and its unfair to expect mods to do it. I think this has been done to death and the system is as good as its going to get without involving personalised couriers (which could be an option for high end deals come to think about it). Can we move on?

ooneil · Aug 18, 2011

tak35bne said:
I am not saying its a perfect system (and on the subject of my deal with Shaun, it was bank transfer, he has now been banned which was the original intent of this thread......lol) but with the right 3rd party who is someone who can follow the rules then this could work. Along with Registered Post it would be a must that signature on receipt and insurance is used, yes it is going to cost more and the only real way to look at it is to document what wust be done and then to trial it with a base card to test the process.

If you have his bank details Dave it would be pretty easy for the Police to track him down - fraud is fraud weather its $60 or 6,000. Have you thought about making a report with the police?

A_Iverson_I · Aug 19, 2011

tak35bne said:
Look I think the idea of a third party has some merit. You would have to look for someone who is available, trustworthy etc and I would set it up like this. Standard trade thread but all 3 parties must agree, seller buyer and other. Both the seller and buyer send their items to the trusted member, If it was me I would set up a PAYPAL account specifically for these transactions. Once the trusted member confirms in the trade/sale thread that both items have been received he/she would then send them to their respected new owners.

Couple of problems:

1. You could only offer this service for Australian residents.
2. Registered post with proof of dispatch using an AUPOST Lodgement Receipt must be used.
3. Then there is the issues of fees / postage for the 3rd party.

There would be other issues that crop up along the way and would have to be explored. When I was working in the ADF we used a document called a Bench Level Instruction (BLI), this BLI would outline the process that must be followed by the seller / buyer / trusted party involved in the transaction. I would be happy to draft one and post to this thread as a discussion document for all to review and with admin approval, we could trial the process of a trade / sale.

The key I think is getting the right person involved as the third party...................any thoughts.

Dave

Sorry don't agree. I'm still sticking with my post above about the third party having to be a properly setup business. As someone else said, what makes a "trusted" 3rd party member any more less likely to run off with the cards? We thought Shaun and Steve were also trustworthy and look what happened there (though still not 100% sure what the deal with Shaun is).

howzat · Aug 19, 2011

Imagine the deal between bolli and steve with a "trusted" 3rd party.
Bolli sends $2k MJ Chrono Gold, MJ Insert and $2400 cash
Steve sends $5k MJ UD graded old school auto/jersey
Suddenly the trusted 3rd party is sitting on around $10k
How ugly could that potentially turn out...

Billyhoyle · Aug 19, 2011

the other thing to factor is in that it is not just as simle as sending to te 3rd party.
* Who's paying for the 3rd party to send them
* What if there is some dodginess from one party - i certainly wouldn't want to be part of it as the 3rd party

What happens to forum members who rip other members off

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