Fleer Retro thoughts so far

ozballer23 · Sep 17, 2012

I think that the product has had a positive impact on the hobby. Finally a product that brings inserts back as the hits in a box! Love the fact everyone is trying to pull a Jordan again! Haven't seen this since the early 90s.

ooneil · Sep 17, 2012

More retro propaganda!!

http://www.dacardworld.com/blog/pro...o-basketball-the-greatest-hobby-product-ever/

Rare23Air83 · Sep 17, 2012

Fleer Retro's are a positive thing for the hobby as it gives a good breath of fresh air with the re-introduction of Inserts as being the hottest hits. A step away from the usual Game Auto Patches which has been over-saturated for many years now.

HOWEVER, the prices you are seeing currently on the Retro products are hyped and shilled to the max. Don't believe the prices you see. They are in demand right now but I have not a single doubt prices will drop down and level off in the coming days.

If you've been following/watching Jordan Retro PMG's like I have, you will see that EVERY single auction had and continues to have the same group of private and low feedback bidders that bombard the auctions with high bids the instant they are live. All the old ones and the newly listed ones. Especially these guys:

c***c ( private )
e***f ( private )
i***e ( private )
u***u ( 20 )

Just look at every Jordan PMG Auction live right now:

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com/itm/320979668155

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com/itm/320982522439

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com/itm/330791615875

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com/itm/390468471272

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com/itm/330793674891

Look at the COMPLETED Auctions of Jordan Retro PMG's. They're also shilled and won by the same ID's. What gives?

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=170907172512

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=251147466267

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=300775585988

Also, the Blue PMG that "supposedly" sold for $10k this morning SCREAMS fake sale.

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=320979668155

Just look at the winning bidder and the 2nd highest bidder.

e***i ( 251 ) <- the same winner that backed out the Lebron 23/50 PMG Blue at $12k BIN and Jordan PMG Blue /50 at $8k BIN.
y***g ( 0 )

And look at the bid retractions in the auction:

e***i ( 251 ) Retracted: US $8,100.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Sep-11-12 06:40:27 PDT
Retracted: Sep-12-12 10:14:49 PDT

c***c ( private ) Retracted: US $8,300.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Sep-12-12 08:02:38 PDT
Retracted: Sep-12-12 08:04:15 PDT

c***c ( private ) Retracted: US $8,100.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Sep-12-12 08:04:28 PDT
Retracted: Sep-12-12 08:07:27 PDT

He retracts his $8,100.00 bid 2 days into the auction when he has no problem bidding past $10k? This guy has 17 bid retractions and has done the same with other PMG Jordans. Bidding high, retracting, then bidding high again and again. Winning and backing out.

Very odd and I wouldn't be surprised if the sale isn't real. And the other PMG Blue that sold for $8k BIN, re-listed and up to $8k again with the same set of shill bidders with low and private feedbacks is hardly real too.

So... yes a lot of the Retro's are indeed selling for high but be careful. There's a LOT of foul play that's going on and it's obvious if you just do a bit of research. There's NO way a RETRO PMG Jordan should be selling for more than the ORIGINALS that is far far rarer and more coveted than any modern card.

nathwinface · Sep 17, 2012

Just bought a box of it, did alright with the last mini box i had, so i figured i'd give it one more go to see if i can crack a good PMG. If not, well, i tried, potentially lost a bit of money.
Thems the breaks.

I love the product personally, the fact that it has this many people excited about it just makes it more enjoyable when you open it.

FabFiveFan · Sep 17, 2012

So we are nearly 2 weeks from initial release and my first impressions have not changed. I am still very disappointed with the letdown from a product that could have hit it out of the park, but instead we are left with a product that is more hype than substance. Sure some of the prices have been astranomical, but that is not how I base my opinions. Just because there is a collector out there that is willing to pay over $7,000 for a non auto, non rookie insert of MJ doesnt make an overall product great, and lets be honest, unless your lucky enough to pull one of the MJ's (or LBJ, but no one else) then it is the other 95% of the product which forms the base of my opinion, and I dont like it at all, for the following reasons:

Sticker Auto's on Autographics = FAIL
Poor player selection/small base list = Disappointment, as no PC players for me at all.
Limited No of Rookies in set = No set collection benefits as you only end up with about 1/3 of the rookie class.
Black & White pics = Average looking cards, especially on the colourful backgrounds, it make the players look real plain.
Redemptions: How can a product have been delayed by over 6 months, yet still have to use redemptions? I hate UD redemptions with a passion.

And possibly the main reason I have not liked this release is because it has brought out alot of the "bad element" in the collecting world, with shilling running rampant, retracted bids left right and centre, and profiteering taking precedence over fun, and I am not even referring to the Card Shops, I am talking about people who would never normally buy cases, then selling off boxes at a premium, forcing prices up unnecessarily, leading to a hike in the price that takes the product out of the price range of most collectors.

As a result, no Retro for me, which means $325 (now $500 at least) to go towards Panini Threads where I can get on card autos of the TOP rookies, a full player list for my PC and at a much more affordable price.

End Rant.

Mico · Sep 17, 2012

To me Fleer retro is bringing out everything bad about the hobby. Shyt product, dodgy buyers/sellers, shilling, sticker autos and college uniforms.

Just goes to show. It's all about the $$$ these days...

NewtotheGame · Sep 17, 2012

khouzza said:
Totally disagree with it dropping in price, while there's a chance to hit a MJ/Lebron auto, a MJ/Lebron PMG and those MJ Buybacks it will continue to rise in price.

true, pulling one of them would be magnificent

Jackot85 · Sep 18, 2012

I think these Retro brought put front the bad side of the hobby... Many many people are speculating on it, it's just $$$ for a flat product (disgusting : http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/...-cases-boxes-retro-you-sitting-currently.html)... A lot of people wanted the 90's back, they gave the strict minimum... because they knew they would make the hype anyway...

1 year of delay and All Stickers for the Autos really????
Inserts are flat seems dark with a lot of black and white photos! Come on no color pictures in the 80's?? And the cutting... Did you see the pictures cutting from the BMOC insert? Jordan with arms and legs cut...

10+ card for a lot the players and only 2-3 photos... that are NOT new photos, just take a look to the previous 2012 UD Products...

I feel like the PMG are here to "hide" the poor quality of the rest...

But, ok it's not all black, some of the Jambalaya, Golden touch & PMG look really great (Grant Hill, Chris Paul, LJ) but it's too few for this kind of product... in my opinion

Seb.

Basketball · Sep 19, 2012

I'm not comparing Jordan to Lebron and vise versa, but what is it with people comparing players from different eras?

Why does a Ferrari from today sell for more than one from 15 or 20 years ago? Maybe more fans and collectors of Ferrari in the year 2012?

You gotta like to collect a particular player in order to wanna buy a card. Doesn't mean because card X sold for this much, now card Y MUST sell for the sale or much higher. It get doesn't work that way. Not attacking you or anything, just saying.

I see people all the time saying, oh wow look what this sold for, that must mean 90's inserts will go up now, and SHOULD/MUST be worth more!!! Who said people today like to collect Toni Kukoc, or Luc Longly, and yes, even Jordan. Sure people today hear on a daily basis how great Jordan is.............. but i've heard how great Babe Ruth was, and how great Bill Russell was, and how great Bruce Lee was(haha), but do I go out of my way to collect them? No.

You gotta like a particular player on the card in order to want to collect him, imo.

There are way more NBA fans today then there was 10, 15 and 20 years ago.... also many people from back then are long out of the hobby, we didn't have forums back then so we couldn't meet people who loved to do the same thing as us, so people tend to leave something when they don't have friends that do the same stuff. Me, I stayed collecting, but is that really the case for most people?

Then you thrown in all the great martketing the NBA has done in recent years bringing the NBA WORLDWIDE!!! It's bigger than ever before. Then you add all these forums where we can meet people and stay in touch talking cards and all that good stuff...... and BAM!!! you have life long collectors, or people who take breaks knowing they could come back later and most their buddieis, if not all, will still be there to chat with about the hobby they love.

So yeah, you can't compare something from today, with something a million years ago, of a different player, no matter how good that playe was. Better player doesn't mean more collectors. Just think about it.

Also, these are not re-makes of the real thing. These ARE PMG's of Lebron, and other players who never had one. So now 20 years from now when they make a PMG of Dicky Wilson... what, it's going to be a reprint or something? No, it will be a PMG of that player. If you can say this for this set, you can say it for any set out there.

Basketball · Sep 19, 2012

Both PMG sets look the same, with the newer ones looking better, in my opion. So you can't say one is more beautiful than the other without a doubt. Some might like A ans some might like B.

Not to mention that this newer release has mostly players that NEVER had a PMG before... so older ones don't matter at all. Just like saying, this 2003-04 Limited Logos cards are better than the 2009-10 Limited Logos, because they were the first ones... I like the 09-10 best! Plus Kevin Durant is ONLY in the 09-10 set!

Collectors today will like the cards from today, simple as that. Always happens that way, people are nostalgic for cards of their times, even us old farts, these are our times now too, only we have the 90's also. I like the new ones more, for many reason that i've exaplained on other threads.
As for the 90's versions.... there were many collectors back then, as in every era. But how many survived? I'm the ONLY surviving member of my very large circle of friends who collected, and people i've known from card shops, shows.... they've all stopped collecting. SO...... how many nostalgic 90's geeks are left? A few hand fulls?

As for today, I see more and more collectors like never before! I think that's part of the NBA's marketing.... they've done a great job to bring the NBA worldwide, and even advisertise it to many more people in the U.S. today, more than in the past............

So thus the prices and more interestead collectors! Not because of the 90's inserts and the people from back then, because they're mostly gone out of the hobby haha. Sure as the "talks" of the old inserts keep spreading here and there, but most people today couldn't care about the players from back then, they like new products and wanna pull the newer guys, like Chris Paul(other sets), Jimmer, LEBRON.......

Why don't "most" people today collect cards from the 1960's? 1970's? 1980's?........... 1990's??? It's a natural cycle....

Forget about the old ones.... the new ones are IN!!!

drob50 · Sep 19, 2012

Basketball said:
Why does a Ferrari from today sell for more than one from 15 or 20 years ago? Maybe more fans and collectors of Ferrari in the year 2012?

Because the new ones have technology not even heard of 15 years ago! If they made an EXACT copy of a 15yr old Ferrari today, it would not come close to the value of an original!

Basketball said:
I see people all the time saying, oh wow look what this sold for, that must mean 90's inserts will go up now, and SHOULD/MUST be worth more!!! Who said people today like to collect Toni Kukoc, or Luc Longly, and yes, even Jordan. Sure people today hear on a daily basis how great Jordan is.............. but i've heard how great Babe Ruth was, and how great Bill Russell was, and how great Bruce Lee was(haha), but do I go out of my way to collect them? No.

Of course that is logical thinking! If a copy of a 90's inserts is selling high, why wouldn't the originals go up to reflect it? The player debate is irrelevant! Just compare the price of a 'common player' from one set to the other!

The checklist of the Retro PMG is full of retired players! Many of which were in the previous sets!

Basketball said:
Also, these are not re-makes of the real thing. These ARE PMG's of Lebron, and other players who never had one. So now 20 years from now when they make a PMG of Dicky Wilson... what, it's going to be a reprint or something? No, it will be a PMG of that player. If you can say this for this set, you can say it for any set out there.

No, sorry! These ARE self proclaimed re-makes of the previous sets! The only differences are that this time, they are an insert instead of a parallel and instead of having 100 of each player, there are 210 of each player!

BTW - Lebron had a PMG on 08-09, so this isn't his first PMG!

I just cannot comprehend how you constantly talk of shilling and manipulation in the 90's insert market but don't even acknowledge it in the Fleer Retro Market!

Look back a few posts! The proof is in the pudding!

hegotgame15 · Sep 19, 2012

Basketball said:
Both PMG sets look the same, with the newer ones looking better, in my opion. So you can't say one is more beautiful than the other without a doubt. Some might like A ans some might like B.

Not to mention that this newer release has mostly players that NEVER had a PMG before... so older ones don't matter at all. Just like saying, this 2003-04 Limited Logos cards are better than the 2009-10 Limited Logos, because they were the first ones... I like the 09-10 best! Plus Kevin Durant is ONLY in the 09-10 set!

Collectors today will like the cards from today, simple as that. Always happens that way, people are nostalgic for cards of their times, even us old farts, these are our times now too, only we have the 90's also. I like the new ones more, for many reason that i've exaplained on other threads.
As for the 90's versions.... there were many collectors back then, as in every era. But how many survived? I'm the ONLY surviving member of my very large circle of friends who collected, and people i've known from card shops, shows.... they've all stopped collecting. SO...... how many nostalgic 90's geeks are left? A few hand fulls?

As for today, I see more and more collectors like never before! I think that's part of the NBA's marketing.... they've done a great job to bring the NBA worldwide, and even advisertise it to many more people in the U.S. today, more than in the past............

So thus the prices and more interestead collectors! Not because of the 90's inserts and the people from back then, because they're mostly gone out of the hobby haha. Sure as the "talks" of the old inserts keep spreading here and there, but most people today couldn't care about the players from back then, they like new products and wanna pull the newer guys, like Chris Paul(other sets), Jimmer, LEBRON.......

Why don't "most" people today collect cards from the 1960's? 1970's? 1980's?........... 1990's??? It's a natural cycle....

Forget about the old ones.... the new ones are IN!!!

WOW!!!
Thank you for the insight, you win the post of the year for your knowledge and expertise.
No need to browse youtube tonight for "epic fails" got my entertainment right here!

ozballer23 · Sep 19, 2012

Why this sell so high?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221124184136?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

drob50 · Sep 19, 2012

ozballer23 said:
Why this sell so high?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221124184136?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

People have caught on to the fact that the throwback parallel autos are the ONLY on card autos from Retro!

They are also they only RC year on card auto of most players to date! Also, Valuncianisnousopolous has quite a following in America!

Check these ones out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-12-Fle...52162489?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item3a79d5deb9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-12-Upp...64962801?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item416ad119f1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-12-Fle...49714780?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item35bfb71a5c

ozballer23 · Sep 19, 2012

drob50 said:
People have caught on to the fact that the throwback parallel autos are the ONLY on card autos from Retro!

They are also they only RC year on card auto of most players to date! Also, Valuncianisnousopolous has quite a following in America!

Check these ones out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-12-Fle...52162489?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item3a79d5deb9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-12-Upp...64962801?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item416ad119f1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-12-Fle...49714780?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item35bfb71a5c

Thats nuts lol Good work if you pulled a few of those! Selling higher than some pmgs!

graham · Sep 19, 2012

drob50 said:
In saying all of this about Retro, there is one MAJOR bonus about the impact it is/should have on the hobby!

That is, that from now on, NO ONE can bag Panini for the amount of sticker autos used in a product!

Out of all the autos I got (around 45 in total) only 2 were ON CARD

There was a Grant Hill Autographics redemption on ebay. Id love it but the chance of a) not ever seeing it or b) it being a sticker has put me off.

drob50 · Sep 19, 2012

graham said:
There was a Grant Hill Autographics redemption on ebay. Id love it but the chance of a) not ever seeing it or b) it being a sticker has put me off.

According to the checklist, there are 3 different Autographics autos from Retro of him. 96/97, 98/99 and 99/00. I HIGHLY doubt that any of them will be on card, seeing as every other player is a sticker.

There is however a Grant Hill auto version of the 86/87 throwback insert, which SHOULD be in card! Keep an eye out for that one! Like the Kawhi Leonard I posted and the one Norm posted ^^ up there, but in the 86/87 fleer design!

ARTHY23 · Sep 19, 2012

drob50 said:
According to the checklist, there are 3 different Autographics autos from Retro of him. 96/97, 98/99 and 99/00. I HIGHLY doubt that any of them will be on card, seeing as every other player is a sticker.

There is however a Grant Hill auto version of the 86/87 throwback insert, which SHOULD be in card! Keep an eye out for that one! Like the Kawhi Leonard I posted and the one Norm posted ^^ up there, but in the 86/87 fleer design!

if it was "in card".. how would you see the auto? so he signs it.. then they stick the front and back on.. please tell me how it works.

drob50 · Sep 19, 2012

ARTHY23 said:
if it was "in card".. how would you see the auto? so he signs it.. then they stick the front and back on.. please tell me how it works.

Well, you take the card.... THAN.... you peel it open.... THAN.... You sign it.... THAN.... You glue it back together!

THAN

ARTHY23 · Sep 19, 2012

THAN-k you for clearing that up..

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