Well, I was supposed to draft a final decision for the staff but had been playing around with verbage to try to convey our decision accurately.
One of the posters above said it probably most correctly... that in the end, the only thing going for Patrick is his word. But it is not correct that his word is good enough for this site. Meaning, HK will NOT in any way guarantee that Patrick's proofs are "legit" proofs taken from uncut sheets. What we know are the following:
1. We have independent confirmation that Patrick has contacts in companies that can get him uncut proofs in large quantities.
2. We have independent confirmation that Patrick was in fact, able to obtain new and more recent uncut proofs (in addition to the large bulk he got in the past) and therefore it is not outside the realm of possibility that he is selling proofs from more recent releases.
3. The proofs that are legit will have the backs whereas proofs that are "home cooked" won't. Patrick's has the backs as far as we can tell.
These alone seem more than enough to support Patrick's story. HOWEVER....
1. There is a lot of negative press and doubt amongst the hobby community at this time because it seems very easy from videos and posts of people who have tried it, to make one of "these" proofs and have it look like the ones Patrick is selling.
2. The staff is not 100% sure that all proofs Patrick has sold (hundreds and thousands already) have the back or not. Is it possible that some don't? Don't know.
3. Patrick has not come out and released more public or private information after the first few negative threads came out. At that time, it did not seem to matter what he said, it was spun around into something negative. The staff CAN understand that and know it can mean there is no sense to continue to plead a case with a jury that has already made up its mind. So his absence does not necessarily = guilt. If people will hear nothing of what you are saying, you will leave and go elsewhere, too or just start minding your own business and not bother with those people. Patrick's leaving or not posting on HK therefore is a neutral thing as far as arriving at a conclusion/judgment.
Having said all that, the stance of the staff on this issue is as follows:
HK has reason to believe that the proofs that Patrick has been selling are legitimately cut from uncut proofs that are purchased from card companies and then cut and sold. However, just like any transaction, any agreement with Patrick will have to be made with common sense and one's own investigation and common sense. If one is uneasy in the least, then in the same way that one would stay away from "fishy" auctions or deals, one should stay away from dealing with Patrick as well. Anyone who buys from him would be the same as any other person buying a card from another.
Since at this point in time there is no ABSOLUTE proof that Patrick is selling fake proofs (i.e. proofs that he has made himself by immersing cards in water), the staff sees no reason to suspend or ban Patrick. Should any incontrovertible proof come out that he is knowingly and purposefully doing this and in the process, cheating/scamming HK members and other hobbyists, then you can all be sure he will be banned from HK.
Patrick has told us in the past that if there is anyone that is unhappy or suspects that the proof they have purchased is fake, he would be more than happy to issue a full refund. We are expecting him to keep this end of the bargain. If you have proof that he is not willing to this and that he does not have any other reason to not come through with a refund, please let us know and we will take that into consideration.
Hopefully this has answered any questions regarding this issue. And I do hope it was worth Bruce's popcorn.
That's the idea from Hobbykings but I don't buy it.
Yes, he has some legit proof cards. I just do not believe the Finest/Chrome "proof" cards are legit.
He says he doesn't have the time to make them himself, but to get the perfection of the cut on the proof cards he says he cut from a sheet himself, you would need a lot of time and effort to do it. The proof cards i've seen are the EXACT size and dimensions of the Finest cards from that year. If he cut them himself, you would see some diamond cuts, miscuts and other imperfections. There is none of that.
I call bull**** on these, and always will. He won't give me a refund because I won't accept his lies and deception and sweep it under the carpet like he asked so many people to do.
we're just going on what we've got in front of us man... you made your call on him and thats cool by us... so you did ask him for a refund and he refused to give one? if thats correct, I'll pass that onto the mods there... I would like to say to all the members here that visit HK as well... our decision on this is not final... it will continue to be monitored and altered based on the evidence we get either for or against Patrick... If we get a reliable source that he does in fact do fakes or he's getting these through some illegal means, he will be deservedly banned... right now, we just dont have those things.
> Patrick Copeland wrote:
Yeah, right don't ever email me again...you and all your Australian buddies have tried you best to get me kicked off ebay, etc...I've seen all your negative comments towards me and now you're begging for a refund...forget about it!
Patrick
Ljbiggestfan2
The proofs that are legit will have the backs whereas proofs that are "home cooked" won't. Patrick's has the backs as far as we can tell.
Hey guys! The video has uploaded and here it is!!!
[youtube]bLN7i1qWldk[/youtube]
Check out the vid to see how easy it was!!!!
Thanx guys
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