Whats the story behind these?

A HobbyKings update -
HobbyKings.com :: View topic - Clarification on the blank proofs

and the official response:
Well, I was supposed to draft a final decision for the staff but had been playing around with verbage to try to convey our decision accurately.

One of the posters above said it probably most correctly... that in the end, the only thing going for Patrick is his word. But it is not correct that his word is good enough for this site. Meaning, HK will NOT in any way guarantee that Patrick's proofs are "legit" proofs taken from uncut sheets. What we know are the following:

1. We have independent confirmation that Patrick has contacts in companies that can get him uncut proofs in large quantities.

2. We have independent confirmation that Patrick was in fact, able to obtain new and more recent uncut proofs (in addition to the large bulk he got in the past) and therefore it is not outside the realm of possibility that he is selling proofs from more recent releases.

3. The proofs that are legit will have the backs whereas proofs that are "home cooked" won't. Patrick's has the backs as far as we can tell.

These alone seem more than enough to support Patrick's story. HOWEVER....

1. There is a lot of negative press and doubt amongst the hobby community at this time because it seems very easy from videos and posts of people who have tried it, to make one of "these" proofs and have it look like the ones Patrick is selling.

2. The staff is not 100% sure that all proofs Patrick has sold (hundreds and thousands already) have the back or not. Is it possible that some don't? Don't know.

3. Patrick has not come out and released more public or private information after the first few negative threads came out. At that time, it did not seem to matter what he said, it was spun around into something negative. The staff CAN understand that and know it can mean there is no sense to continue to plead a case with a jury that has already made up its mind. So his absence does not necessarily = guilt. If people will hear nothing of what you are saying, you will leave and go elsewhere, too or just start minding your own business and not bother with those people. Patrick's leaving or not posting on HK therefore is a neutral thing as far as arriving at a conclusion/judgment.

Having said all that, the stance of the staff on this issue is as follows:

HK has reason to believe that the proofs that Patrick has been selling are legitimately cut from uncut proofs that are purchased from card companies and then cut and sold. However, just like any transaction, any agreement with Patrick will have to be made with common sense and one's own investigation and common sense. If one is uneasy in the least, then in the same way that one would stay away from "fishy" auctions or deals, one should stay away from dealing with Patrick as well. Anyone who buys from him would be the same as any other person buying a card from another.

Since at this point in time there is no ABSOLUTE proof that Patrick is selling fake proofs (i.e. proofs that he has made himself by immersing cards in water), the staff sees no reason to suspend or ban Patrick. Should any incontrovertible proof come out that he is knowingly and purposefully doing this and in the process, cheating/scamming HK members and other hobbyists, then you can all be sure he will be banned from HK.

Patrick has told us in the past that if there is anyone that is unhappy or suspects that the proof they have purchased is fake, he would be more than happy to issue a full refund. We are expecting him to keep this end of the bargain. If you have proof that he is not willing to this and that he does not have any other reason to not come through with a refund, please let us know and we will take that into consideration.

Hopefully this has answered any questions regarding this issue. And I do hope it was worth Bruce's popcorn.
Click to expand...
 
That's the idea from Hobbykings but I don't buy it.

Yes, he has some legit proof cards. I just do not believe the Finest/Chrome "proof" cards are legit.

He says he doesn't have the time to make them himself, but to get the perfection of the cut on the proof cards he says he cut from a sheet himself, you would need a lot of time and effort to do it. The proof cards i've seen are the EXACT size and dimensions of the Finest cards from that year. If he cut them himself, you would see some diamond cuts, miscuts and other imperfections. There is none of that.

I call bull**** on these, and always will. He won't give me a refund because I won't accept his lies and deception and sweep it under the carpet like he asked so many people to do.
 
Yep, it is ridiculous to say (and believe for that matter) that cutting cards from an uncut sheet is "easy" or "quick" when compared to soaking x amount of cards in water. It would be so difficult to perfectly cut out those foils using anything but industrial machines specifically suited to the job.
 
hill33 said:
That's the idea from Hobbykings but I don't buy it.

Yes, he has some legit proof cards. I just do not believe the Finest/Chrome "proof" cards are legit.

He says he doesn't have the time to make them himself, but to get the perfection of the cut on the proof cards he says he cut from a sheet himself, you would need a lot of time and effort to do it. The proof cards i've seen are the EXACT size and dimensions of the Finest cards from that year. If he cut them himself, you would see some diamond cuts, miscuts and other imperfections. There is none of that.

I call bull**** on these, and always will. He won't give me a refund because I won't accept his lies and deception and sweep it under the carpet like he asked so many people to do.
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we're just going on what we've got in front of us man... you made your call on him and thats cool by us... so you did ask him for a refund and he refused to give one? if thats correct, I'll pass that onto the mods there... I would like to say to all the members here that visit HK as well... our decision on this is not final... it will continue to be monitored and altered based on the evidence we get either for or against Patrick... If we get a reliable source that he does in fact do fakes or he's getting these through some illegal means, he will be deservedly banned... right now, we just dont have those things.
 
Thats cool Dog..

I banned him at the time as basically I didn't want to deal with the whole thing especially after all that came out pointing towards the whole lot being dodge. At the end of the day we don't want cards offered here that we can't vouch are real and authentic. If people want to continue to buy off Patrick on eBay that is their business but here we only allow the sale of autos for example if they are UD auth, GAI or from card releases. Some may be legit but thats not the type of risk we like taking with our members. Its hard to get the whole right answers we want when Pat is so secretive about his sources etc. The fleer auctions and this type of stuff is no good for the hobby we all would agree and better that its off our site.
 
Depitydog said:
we're just going on what we've got in front of us man... you made your call on him and thats cool by us... so you did ask him for a refund and he refused to give one? if thats correct, I'll pass that onto the mods there... I would like to say to all the members here that visit HK as well... our decision on this is not final... it will continue to be monitored and altered based on the evidence we get either for or against Patrick... If we get a reliable source that he does in fact do fakes or he's getting these through some illegal means, he will be deservedly banned... right now, we just dont have those things.
Click to expand...

Yeah man that's correct. He refused to give me a refund. I emailed asking for one and this is the response I got :

> Patrick Copeland wrote:

Yeah, right don't ever email me again...you and all your Australian buddies have tried you best to get me kicked off ebay, etc...I've seen all your negative comments towards me and now you're begging for a refund...forget about it!

Patrick
Ljbiggestfan2
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I don't want to tell you guys at Hobbykings what to do, nor do I expect you to listen :) You guys have made your decision and will monitor it - that's cool. I have the utmost respect for your site and you guys do a fantastic job. Please don't take my post as an attack on HK - i'm just saying how I feel about these proof cards and that's it :)
 
The proofs that are legit will have the backs whereas proofs that are "home cooked" won't. Patrick's has the backs as far as we can tell.
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whats meant by the term of back??? as the finest proofs i got from pat are identical to the ones i cooked myself after all this, to test the theories out
 
The Manu 'proof' I purchased from Patrick off of ebay does not have a 'back'. It is just the front piece of foil. The front of the 'proof' looks like a normal card and the back is just a silver reverse image that is embossed. It does NOT have the card back. I read this explanation on HK, about his having the backs, but mine looks just like the home cooked versions.
 
Damn, the thread that never dies... :eek:

I'm suprised he's still at it, legitimate or not. With all the negative attention on these auctions it would be pointless even if they were in fact real.
 
rhysjsolomon said:
Hey guys! The video has uploaded and here it is!!!

[youtube]bLN7i1qWldk[/youtube]

Check out the vid to see how easy it was!!!!

Thanx guys
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing Video.

I came across this thread today.


Well, I just want to share story of these 2 cards.

Untitled-1copy.jpg

(Like White point at picture is dust. Card is cleaner than picture)



I don't know real Finest Test Proof is there or not.



But for me, I did my self around 1998.

At that time, I could get many base cards as free.

SO I was just really curious.


If you are 90's collector, would you be able to remember 1994-95 Finest Marathon Men or Iorn Men Insert from 1994-95 finest?
kennyandersonrefractors-1.jpg


Front looks like finest base card. But back of that card is silver shiny color.


At that time, even valueless Players' insert cards were not cheap.

Furthermore, I wanted minor players(like Robert Horry)
But it was neatly impossible to get those players' cards.
(At least in my country)



SO after receiving cards(bunch of finest and Chrome but most of them were useless of course..) one idea pop-uped.


Hmm.If I make this Alozno Mourning card like 1994-95 Finest Insert, it would be really nice.

But I have only 1 Alonzo Mourning finest to test, before doing that I examined at least 10 cards..lol

One of that was suceeded and that was that B.J. Armstrong card.



But I didn't throw that card to boilling water like Video.

I did only by my hands.
(without any tool or something / and I didn't boil or froze those cards. Made within 1/2 - 1 min. per card)

After a little examine, I did that so I could get that Alonzo Mourning card. =)









P.S. I I didn't read whole thread. because too many posted here. I will read when I have free time.


BTW, I came across this video ,too.(As you know...)

[youtube]ms5T7Stx7tU[/youtube]


I felt a bit sad. =( Because I don't have that base Kenny Anderson !!
 
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