What repercussions will the GST have on the hobby?
- Thread starter Coopz05
- Start date
theflyinggerco
OzCardTrader
I noticed that today when I picked up a package of 100+ cards, but it had a value of $27 on the box.
That's certainly how I get the majority of my American purchased cards shipped to me, and I'll be leaning particularly hard on this service going forward.
In regards to the Federal Government - or any government - doing some fiscally stupid is that money isn't the only currency they are interested in. This move certainly earns them political currency with some people.
hackadeandre
OzCardTrader
I believe that something does need to be done, as you've pointed out Ben, you conduct business above board, pay GST, contribute to society etc. Whilst others can get away with selling cheaper and probably make more money as well.
However if the whole operation is going to cost more than what it makes and causes more headaches, what's the point of being counter-productive? Governments need to start thinking outside the square a little and make taxation more simpler and cost-effective to implement. No offence to people who work for the Government in some way, however if these departments were ran like a commercial business they would most likely all go broke with the amount of inefficiencies they have. How about scrapping GST altogether therefore leveling the playing field and increasing income tax to cover the loss of GST. The system's already in place for income tax, so no extra cost to collect this tax at all. Then we would just need to do something about those people perfectly capable of working and contributing to society that think it's perfectly fine to sit and home and collect our tax dollars.
shawnkemp40
🔴⚪⚫
I have a problem paying tax on secondhand products period. Which is what opened cards are. It's double dipping regardless of which countries govt. it is. If a product is brand new unopened as in pack, box etc fair enough I spose.
Unfortunately though it's like that in the UK also anything over £30/40 has VAT slapped on it. The mailman hits you up for it to release the package so i have been informed. No, I don't mean Karl Malone ...
Unfortunately though it's like that in the UK also anything over £30/40 has VAT slapped on it. The mailman hits you up for it to release the package so i have been informed. No, I don't mean Karl Malone ...
Tell me about it.. charges are ridiculous over here...payed £25 for a card from Yahoo japan..about £30 Inc Postage.. but i was also slapped with a £17 customs Charge! parcelforce though they're take about £8 for doing so.. the uk is awful for that stuff!
I'd also love it if i could buy locally, but the problem I have is that the products I want often aren't available (or failing that, aren't in stock) here...and when they are they are often ludicrously expensive.
For example, I'm a big fan of the Upper Deck stuff (Exquisite, All Time Greats, UD Black). I've really wanted to buy a case of UD Back or Exquisite, but I can't but it overseas because it'll work out well over $1,000 and I'll get hit with crazy fees. Yet I can't buy it here because nobody in Australia seems to actually sell the stuff. When they have it listed, it's typically out of stock.
So I get stuck with buying a couple of boxes here and there from the US because that's really the option I have.
The other issue I have is that while some products are priced fairly here (all things considered), some are ridiculously overpriced. For example very few retail shops sell UD Black here, so you have to look to ebay for something like that. Guys on ebay are sellng that product for about $350 which is absolutely rediculous since I can easilly get a box directly shipped here for about $260.
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I can certainly understand the concern here, as it's not fair on the legit business who have higher costs in order to run 'legitimately'.
However a couple of points on that topic:
1) I have honestly never really seen anybody in Oz selling cards for any cheaper than what the established stores here sell them for.
2) Doesn't customs keep track of how much in total people import over time, and then start charging if the amount exceeds a certain threshold? My understanding was that even if you break up orders into multiple packages to keep it under $1,000, customs keeps a history and if your orders exceeed a certain amount over a certain period of time (e.g. if you consistently order $4,000 in boxes each month) then you get hit with the charges.
3) If #2 is true, then any individual seller who does try to make money this wayis going to be limited by the amount of outright profit they can make, due to limitations on the amount of stock they can bring in
4) From my experiences recently (I only really got back into card collecting in the past year) it's usually not that much cheaper to buy products overseas and ship directly.
For example I couldn't find 2014/15 National Treasures any cheaper than about $600 USD. If I chuck that into a currency converter, that works out around $850 for the product alone, before shipping. I think most legit retailers here are selling the product for around $900 AUD. Once you factor in shipping (typicaly at least $40 AUD), you're really not saving anything. You can't even bring the shipping down much by splitting it over mutiple products, because once you include that $40+ shipping you're already right near that $1,000 threshold so there isn't much you can add to the order.
The only way you could really make legit money from this is by ordering cases of cheap product and then breaking and selling the boxes as individuals. But even then you'd be very limited. You'd be limited to seeling cheap products, since the case would need to be < $700 USD shipped (to keep under the threshold) and the quanity would have to be at least 10 boxes per case (to give you any real profit). Even then, once you add ebay fees (as I belive they would be added per box you sell, right?) and income tax, there isn't a whole lot to be made. You'd need to move at least 2-3 cases of stuff per week to make a living off it, and if you're moving that much product I doubt customs would remain oblivious for long.
SharpysSports
OzCardTrader
It seems like I got lucky! 3-4 weeks ago my wife and I decided to sell our unit in Sydney and look at buying an investment property. To do this we had to save every last cent and I went from buying 30-40 PC cards a week down to none. I haven't bought a single card since we decided to sell and have only just realised how low the Aussie dollar has gone!
I am all for introducing the GST if it is going to make our local hobby shops more appealing to local buyers however I am with @West Oz Cards in that I hope second hand PC purchases from individuals (not businesses) are exempt from this tax. How will they enforce this? Got no idea but hopefully using COMC will get around this.
I am all for introducing the GST if it is going to make our local hobby shops more appealing to local buyers however I am with @West Oz Cards in that I hope second hand PC purchases from individuals (not businesses) are exempt from this tax. How will they enforce this? Got no idea but hopefully using COMC will get around this.
My concern is that from what I've seen, there really is not a ot of monetary saving right now from importing cards yourself, rather than buying from a local dealer.
I think the biggest motivation for ordering cards direct from overseas right now is that local dealers simply don't have a big enough range, and (at least in my case) never seem to have any of the products I want to buy in stock.
To be honest this is IMHO the biggest problem with the local market in lots of areas, not just trading cards. The whole idea behind buying locally is that you might pay a little more, but you get superior service - for example, if you buy a new TV locally you get to go in to the store, see the TV for yourself, and see if you like it. Buying online you can't do that, hence there's benefit to buying local that offsets the extra cost.
The problem is that this is rarely the case. Almost every time I go to a local retailer to buy something they either:
1) They don't have the product I'm looking for on display, so I can't see it
2) They have the product on display, but are out of stock
3) They don't have the product in stock or on display
4) All the sales staff are standing around talking and nobody wants to actually serve
When this is the scenario, there is really very little incentive to buy local. If you aren't going to get that extra service, what's the point in spending the extra money? May as well just buy the same product from an online store (since I can't see it at the store anyway) and save what is often a very substantial amount of money.
If anything cards make it even harder because unlike things like clothes (which you need to try on) and electronics (which you depend on warranty for) cards don't really have any function - buying from a local dealer doesn't give you any service 'advantage' compared to importing directly. The exception would be buying individual cards (as you can see the condition in person) but I only really buy boxes / cases so for someone like me there is very little reason to buy local if it's going to cost me more.
Now there is the whole warm and fuzzy "doing the right thing, and suppoting people who have families to feed" and that's fair. It's for that reason that I do try to buy all things local if I can. But to be fair that doesn't offer any benefit to you, so there's a limit to how much extra i'm willing to pay for the sake of essentially doing a favour for a stranger.
Likewise cards are a bit different because there isn't a lot of difference cost wise between buying local vs importing privately, so in this case you may as well do the good ethical thing and buy local.
My bigger concern though is product choice, and as with other retailers there seems to be limited choice in the local market. Either the choice is limited, or the websites simply don't reflect stock levels well enough, because I occasionally check websites of local card companies and I rarely ever find the products I'm looking for. Typically there are 8 - 10 different boxes, maybe one or two different cases, and that's about it. Often I want to buy boxes of 5 or 6 different products and I'd rather get them all in one playce (it just makes it easier) so if half the products aren't available locally then I'll just order the whole lot overseas.
A change like this would make importing so much more expensive, but that isn't going to make me want to buy products I'm not interested in. It's only going to make me unwilling to buy the products I AM interested in, and hence I'll just stop buying products altogether. Why would I buy stuff I don't really want just for the sake of buying something?
This is where the problem lies, I think. In many cases it won't push people to buy local, it'll just push people to stop buying entirely.
P.s.
I just want to make sure that my post didn't give the wrong impression. I don't at all blame the retailers for the lack of range/selection they have available. I completely understand that here in Oz we have a much smaller market for this hobby (and in general) then there is in a country like the US. Retailers here can't go ordering every product out there just for the sake of range - half of it would never sell, and it would be dead money. This is only compounded by the fact that we are so isolated (geographically) from the rest of the world, and so the costs of shipping anything here is astronomical. Then to add to that our exchange rate makes it even worse.
For any retailer to be profitable it's important to manage stock levels carefully - too little and you can't make money, too much and you're throwing money way on stock you can't move. You need to manage stock numbers carefully, so you need to maximise quantities of the products that you know will sell - and can't afford to waste money on products that might not move. I understand this, so I don't blame the retailers. It's just an unfortunate nature of the market we're in.
At the same time, it doesn't change the fact that the range is limited - and consumers won't generally just go and buy any product just for the sake of buying something. At least not for a hobby/luxury like trading card collcting. You do it because you want to, not becuase you have to. If you don't want the product, then it defeats the purpose. If the product I want isn't available for example (or at least one that I have some degree of interest in) then I'll import directly - and if that option gets taken away then I just won't buy at all.
I feel like the government and/or distributers need to do something to either help the retailers, or something to give consumers more incentive to want to buy locally. Those words "Incentive" and "want" are the key words here. Trading cards are not a "need" - they are't a product you have to have, like a fridge or furniture. They are a hobby - a luxury. You can't just cut off a supply line, and expect all buyers will flock to the otehr supply line that remains. Some people will, but others will just say "oh well, guess that's a luxury I'll have to live without". When that happens, everybody loses.
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West Oz Cards
WOC Group Breaks
Some good points made.
In regards to consumers and local retailing, it also comes down to an individuals personality.
This generation of consumers are very tech savvy.... 20 years ago before the interwebs we had to go to the shops and talk to retailers about electronics and try on clothes etc.. we relied on them for product information so much.
Now the web gives us a wealth of information on what products we are looking for.. more technical and objective information than any retail salesperson could provide. Hence why would we bother talking to sales reps when we have already researched the optimum product for ourselves.
And then through a series of searches or websites, you can find the cheapest place to purchase said item and have it delivered to your door without wasting any further time or money.
Its smart shopping, we've been trained to shop this way by the media and software development.
And there's also a good portion of the last and current generation that are quite introverted so facing people in public and talking to retailers is something they cannot do.. you will never convert them back to face to face retail.
As for variety of product, between the 6 major retailers in Australia, surely there is something that satisfies everyone's appetite.. but like you well pointed out; ideally retailers should target stock that is popular and moves fast. Stock sitting on shelves for the sake of having stock doesn't make money.
In regards to consumers and local retailing, it also comes down to an individuals personality.
This generation of consumers are very tech savvy.... 20 years ago before the interwebs we had to go to the shops and talk to retailers about electronics and try on clothes etc.. we relied on them for product information so much.
Now the web gives us a wealth of information on what products we are looking for.. more technical and objective information than any retail salesperson could provide. Hence why would we bother talking to sales reps when we have already researched the optimum product for ourselves.
And then through a series of searches or websites, you can find the cheapest place to purchase said item and have it delivered to your door without wasting any further time or money.
Its smart shopping, we've been trained to shop this way by the media and software development.
And there's also a good portion of the last and current generation that are quite introverted so facing people in public and talking to retailers is something they cannot do.. you will never convert them back to face to face retail.
As for variety of product, between the 6 major retailers in Australia, surely there is something that satisfies everyone's appetite.. but like you well pointed out; ideally retailers should target stock that is popular and moves fast. Stock sitting on shelves for the sake of having stock doesn't make money.
All very good points.
I guess the big challenge for me is that my taste in cards is probably far from the norm. I'm really big on high end Upper Deck (Exquisite, UD Black, ATG) but it's really hard to find anyone over here who sells even loose boxes of the stuff, let alone cases.
Getting cases of anything that pricey from the US is just a no-go because of the $1k import restrictions. The price would get rediculous very quickly.
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