Basketball Hall of Fame Debate

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 17, 2014

With some of the players (I haven't looked at coaches etc) getting in to the HOF it makes it seem (to me anyway) that they need to make it harder to get in.
Am I being too harsh in saying someone like Mitch Richmond shouldn't get in? I know it's EXTREMELY hard to narrow down criteria which would allow you to get in but I think they should at least make public who is on the committee and why they inducted (or denied) someone.

I'm aware that it's Basketball so not just the NBA. Also hard to quantify a player like Robert Horry or Derek Fishers impact if they have say 5000 points but 5 rings. Must be a tough job to decide. Still, someone has to do it!

Bill Russell - OBVIOUS. Jack McCracken - NOT SO!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_McCracken

Opinions?

Here's the older threads I could find on OCT. Take a look

2006

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/community/threads/hall-of-fame-06.9038/#post-88731

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/community/threads/nba-hof-for-2006-finalists.3194/#post-25875

2007

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/community/threads/phil-jackson-hof.21325/#post-222267

2008

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/community/threads/future-hofers.27786/#post-281258

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/comm...o-present-olajuwon-at-hall.36018/#post-353490

2009

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/comm...-announced-mj-offically-in.43502/#post-420182

2011

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/community/threads/basketball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2011.103971/

2013

http://www.ozcardtrader.com.au/community/threads/fringe-hall-of-fame-players.153014/#post-1365004

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 17, 2014

Hall of Fame site

http://www.hoophall.com/history/

wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismith_Memorial_Basketball_Hall_of_Fame

Criteria for induction[edit]
In contrast to the Pro Football and the National Baseball Halls of Fame, Springfield honors international and American professionals, as well as American and international amateurs, making it arguably the most comprehensive Hall of Fame among major sports. Since 2011, the induction process employs a total of seven committees to both screen and elect candidates. Four of these committees screen prospective candidates:[4]

North American Screening Committee (9 members)
Women's Screening Committee (7 members)
International Screening Committee (7 members)
Veterans Screening Committee (7 members), with "Veterans" defined as individuals whose careers ended at least 35 years before they are considered for election.[5]

Since 2011, the Veterans and International Committees also vote to directly induct one candidate for each induction class.[6]

Three committees formed in 2011 directly elect one candidate for each induction class:[6]

American Basketball Association Committee
Contributor Direct Election Committee
- Note that other committees may choose to elect contributors. For example, the upcoming 2014 class will include two contributors.
Early African-American Pioneers of the Game Committee

Individuals who receive at least seven votes from the North American Screening Committee or five votes from one of the other screening committees in a given year are eligible to advance to an Honors Committee, composed of 12 members who vote on each candidate and rotating groups of 12 specialists (one group for female candidates, one group for international candidates, and one group for American and veterans candidates). However, each screening committee is limited as to the number of candidates it can put forth to the Honors Committee—10 from the North American Committee, and two from each other committee. Any individual receiving at least 18 affirmative votes (75 percent of all votes cast) from the Honors Committee is approved for induction into the Hall of Fame. As long as the number of candidates receiving sufficient votes from a screening committee is not greater than the number of finalists that committee can put forth, advancement to the Honors Committee is generally pro forma, although the Hall's Board of Trustees may remove any candidate who "has damaged the integrity of the game of basketball" from consideration.[5]

To be considered for induction by a screening committee, a player must be fully retired from play for at least five years, while a coach or referee must be fully retired for at least five years or have been active full-time in his/her respective craft on the professional, collegiate or high school level for at least 25 years. No years of service criterion is applied to those who have made a "significant contribution to the game of basketball". Sportswriters and commentators are elected as full-fledged members (in contrast to the Baseball Hall of Fame that places them in separate wings that are not considered in the "real" Hall of Fame).[5]

Controversy[edit]
Controversy has arisen over many aspects of the Hall's voting procedures, including voter anonymity. While sportswriter voters of other major sports' Halls of Fame openly debate their choices, the Naismith Hall does not make the process transparent.[7] The Hall has also been criticized in opinion columns for a tendency to enshrine active collegiate coaches and relatively obscure players while omitting some accomplished players and coaches.[8]

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 17, 2014

Since 1959, 345 coaches, players, referees, contributors, and teams have been inducted,[9] with the most recent class entering on August 8, 2014.[10] John Wooden, Lenny Wilkens, and Bill Sharman have each been inducted as both player and coach (Wooden in 1961 and 1973, Sharman in 1976 and 2004, and Wilkens in 1989 and 1999).[11]

On three occasions, the Hall has inducted new classes without honoring a player – 1965, 1968, and 2007.

LIST OF MEMBERS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Naismith_Memorial_Basketball_Hall_of_Fame

LIST OF PLAYERS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_in_the_Naismith_Memorial_Basketball_Hall_of_Fame

Billyhoyle · Aug 17, 2014

Have you read the big book of basketball by Bill Simmons?
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...en&sa=X&ei=qAjwU5mtNsqJogTcpYKwDQ&redir_esc=y

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 17, 2014

Billyhoyle said:
Have you read the big book of basketball by Bill Simmons?
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=oLCSBeuStRcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=nba bill simmons&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qAjwU5mtNsqJogTcpYKwDQ&redir_esc=y

No I haven't Andrew! I see the HOF chapter, might have to get it to have a read soon! One more Game of Thrones book to go yet though lol

Billyhoyle · Aug 17, 2014

GarnettFan4Life said:
No I haven't Andrew! I see the HOF chapter, might have to get it to have a read soon! One more Game of Thrones book to go yet though lol

Matt you would love this book, right up alley!

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 17, 2014

2 really interesting reads here, reminding myself for later

http://statitudes.com/blog/2014/06/04/basketball-hall-of-fame-standards/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 17, 2014

Yes or No? (not all retired yet so may have more accomplishments to help)

Steve Nash
Vince Carter
Yao Ming
Tracy McGrady
Derek Fisher
Ray Allen
Chris Webber
Bill Laimbeer
Jermaine O'Neal
Chauncey Billups
Pau Gasol
Grant Hill
Stephon Marbury
Ben Wallace
Chris Bosh

Billyhoyle · Aug 17, 2014

Be interesting to see what others think.

My thinking is that realistically the hall of fame should essentially be loosely the top ten percent of players only. The cream of the crop.

Many of the players listed I would say they are superstars, but not HOFers

GarnettFan4Life said:
Yes or No? (not all retired yet so may have more accomplishments to help)

Steve Nash - Yes, multiple MVP
Vince Carter
Yao Ming - Yes, but mainly for the fact he was a game changer with impact globally.
Tracy McGrady - No
Derek Fisher - No
Ray Allen - Yes
Chris Webber - No
Bill Laimbeer - Yes
Jermaine O'Neal - No
Chauncey Billups - No
Pau Gasol - No
Grant Hill - No (sorry Graham), ROY not much beyond.
Stephon Marbury - No
Ben Wallace - Yes, multiple DPOY, NBA Champ
Chris Bosh - No

dvl_402 · Aug 18, 2014

GarnettFan4Life said:
Yes or No? (not all retired yet so may have more accomplishments to help)

Steve Nash - yes
Vince Carter - 50/50 chance. did he even reach conf finals?
Yao Ming - yes, they need basketball to continue to get bigger in china
Tracy McGrady - similar to vince
Derek Fisher - no
Ray Allen - yes
Chris Webber - yes. solid nba career plus ncaa success
Bill Laimbeer - yes
Jermaine O'Neal - no
Chauncey Billups - no
Pau Gasol- yes. nba + international career
Grant Hill - same with cwebb
Stephon Marbury - no
Ben Wallace - rodman got in so y not?
Chris Bosh - getting there, need to lead heat even without great post season success

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2014

Vince is interesting. Let's say he ends up with a ROTY, 8 all stars, 27000 points, 0 titles. Considering what he did for the dunk comp/dunking history he should probably get in given the current standard and maybe even under a stricter standard. Would 1 ring add that much to his legacy? I'd say he's a lock.

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2014

GarnettFan4Life said:
Yes or No? (not all retired yet so may have more accomplishments to help)

Steve Nash yes
Vince Carter yes
Yao Ming yes
Tracy McGrady no
Derek Fisher no
Ray Allen yes
Chris Webber no
Bill Laimbeer no
Jermaine O'Neal no
Chauncey Billups no
Pau Gasol no
Grant Hill probably no
Stephon Marbury no
Ben Wallace no
Chris Bosh no

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2014

Ok let's check out this formula by Justin Kubatko spun off a Bill James HOF formula for baseball (posted from Statitudes blog below)

http://statitudes.com/blog/2014/06/04/basketball-hall-of-fame-standards/

Now let me outline the system:

Games Played: Award the player one point for every 40 games played above 400, with a limit of 15 points.
Points Per Game: Award the player one point for every 0.5 point per game above 10.0 points per game, with a limit of 20 points.
Rebounds Per Game: Award the player one point for every 0.5 rebound per game above 5.0 rebounds per game, with a limit of 10 points.
Assists Per Game: Award the player one point for every 0.5 assist per game above 5.0 assists per game, with a limit of 5 points.
All-Star Games: Award the player two points for each All-Star selection, with a limit of 20 points.
Championships: Award the player three points for every championship team he played on, with a limit of 15 points.
MVP Awards: Award the player five points for every MVP award he won, with a limit of 15 points.

The maximum possible score is 100. I don’t agree with all of the weights or categories, but based on past election results those seem to be the things that the voters have deemed most important. I’ll go through an example using Bill Russell:

Games Played: Russell played in 963 games: (963 – 400) / 40 = 14.075. Dropping the decimal, he earns 14 points in this category.
Points Per Game: Russell averaged 15.1 points per game for his career: (15.1 – 10) / 0.5 = 10.2. He earns 10 points in this category.
Rebounds Per Game: Russell averaged 22.5 rebounds per game for his career: (22.5 – 5) / 0.5 = 35. The is above the limit for this category, so credit him with 10 points.
Assists Per Game: Russell averaged 4.3 assists per game for his career, so he does not earn any points in this category.
All-Star Games: Russell was selected to play in 12 All-Star Games: 12 × 2 = 24. This is above the limit for this category, so credit him with 20 points.
Championships: Russell’s Celtics won 11 NBA championships: 11 × 3 = 33. This is above the limit for this category, so credit him with 15 points.
MVP: Russell won five MVP awards: 5 × 5 = 25. This is above the limit for this category, so credit him with 15 points.

Adding it all up, Russell’s score is:

14 + 10 + 10 + 0 + 20 + 15 + 15 = 84

Among Hall of Famers, that score puts Russell in sixth place

MY POINTERS ON THIS would be : should there be bonus points for Rookie of The Year? I'd say 2. Any bonus for Olympic Gold Medal? I'd say 3.
Any bonus for All NBA 1st team? I'd say 2.
Agree with no bonus for All Star MVP's though.

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2014

Average HOF player has 50. Some way more, some a bit less.

Vince Carter (rounding out for say another 2 seasons) : 15 + 20 + 0 + 0 + 16 + 0 + 0 = 51
Steve Nash : 15 + 8 + 0 + 7 + 14 + 0 + 10 = 54
Chauncey Billups = 38
Chris Bosh = 60
Yao Ming = 44
Antawn Jamison = 41
Amare Stoudamire = 47
Manu Ginobili = 31

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2014

Now for my interest, I know it's pointless because he's a LOCK lol

Kevin Garnett = 15 + 17 + 10 + 0 + 20 + 3 + 5 = 70

Who wan't do their fav player? Tim Duncan anyone?

KB. · Aug 18, 2014

I know he doesn't have a chance unless it's with the dream team 2, but I'd love to see Kemp make the HOF.

edabomb · Aug 18, 2014

GarnettFan4Life said:
Yes or No? (not all retired yet so may have more accomplishments to help)

Steve Nash - Yes, two time MVP is a sure thing.
Vince Carter - No. Not enough team success or transcedent individual success on his CV. More chance than his cousin T-Mac though.
Yao Ming - Yes - based on international role more than NBA career.
Tracy McGrady - No. Brilliant at his peak but not consistent enough over a long period, nor any team success.
Derek Fisher - No.
Ray Allen - Yes. All time leader in three pointers, a ring in his prime and a shot to win another one + Olympic gold get him over the line. Probably first ballot.
Chris Webber - No. Borderline as he was one of the best two or three players in the game in his best seasons - but didn't sustain them for long enough. Injury again a big factor.
Bill Laimbeer - No.
Jermaine O'Neal - No.
Chauncey Billups - Yes. He will get in eventually - very similar career to Joe Dumars with the Finals MVP getting him over the line.
Pau Gasol - Yes - 2 Championships and a great international career.
Grant Hill - Yes. 2 NCAA Championships, great individual career and a gold medal get him there.
Stephon Marbury - No.
Ben Wallace - No - but he could sneak in on the back of 4 DPoY awards and his Championship. That is quite a resume.
Chris Bosh - No, but time enough to make a case yet. Needs to get his stats back up there now LeBron is gone - 20,000 points & 10,000 rebounds + 2 rings should equal HoF.

dvl_402 · Aug 18, 2014

KB. said:
I know he doesn't have a chance unless it's with the dream team 2, but I'd love to see Kemp make the HOF.

include a new criterion - number of fathered children. bonus pts - number of children with different women

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2014

KB. said:
I know he doesn't have a chance unless it's with the dream team 2, but I'd love to see Kemp make the HOF.

Shawn Kemp = 15 + 9 + 7 + 0 + 12 + 0 + 0 = 43. Not impossible but I'd lean towards not going in

GarnettFan4Life · Aug 18, 2014

edabomb said:
Steve Nash - Yes, two time MVP is a sure thing.
Vince Carter - No. Not enough team success or transcedent individual success on his CV. More chance than his cousin T-Mac though.
Yao Ming - Yes - based on international role more than NBA career.
Tracy McGrady - No. Brilliant at his peak but not consistent enough over a long period, nor any team success.
Derek Fisher - No.
Ray Allen - Yes. All time leader in three pointers, a ring in his prime and a shot to win another one + Olympic gold get him over the line. Probably first ballot.
Chris Webber - No. Borderline as he was one of the best two or three players in the game in his best seasons - but didn't sustain them for long enough. Injury again a big factor.
Bill Laimbeer - No.
Jermaine O'Neal - No.
Chauncey Billups - Yes. He will get in eventually - very similar career to Joe Dumars with the Finals MVP getting him over the line.
Pau Gasol - Yes - 2 Championships and a great international career.
Grant Hill - Yes. 2 NCAA Championships, great individual career and a gold medal get him there.
Stephon Marbury - No.
Ben Wallace - No - but he could sneak in on the back of 4 DPoY awards and his Championship. That is quite a resume.
Chris Bosh - No, but time enough to make a case yet. Needs to get his stats back up there now LeBron is gone - 20,000 points & 10,000 rebounds + 2 rings should equal HoF.

you're going on current standards yeah? Looks good to me. I did mine above on reigning it in a little hence no Billups etc. Given the Bosh stats even if he retired now it looks like he's 1st ballot. seems weird. Hang on, let me see what number I get using that method, 60 doesn't seem right....

Basketball Hall of Fame Debate

Should the standards for getting into the HOF be increased or made public to allow clarification?

Yes! Way too many unworthy players in there!

Yes. It would allow people to know why someone got in or why they were denied

No! Perfect the way it is.

No. Making judges/criteria public would allow influence/tampering

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Basketball Hall of Fame Debate

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