Pump and Dumps. No Place in this Hobby. Rant

[Chris_Paul3]

Exactly why i have faded into the back round collecting wise and more taking the fight up with these hype machines going around the last 24 mths , and yes it is mostly from the US members since people are so scared to say that's why i spent more time on there boards in there face while others hid .

The MJ garbage was the last straw as i saw most of the crap was coming from so called respected members that the collecting world bowed down to when most are just money hungry jerks no wonder the economy is where it is at .

No offense to anyone but this hobby has become pathetic more broke Investors taking advantage of true collectors trying to make $$$$.

It was about time while others laughed and scoffed when certain people had balls to step up while others cowered in the corners not looking to damage there rep so they could obtain cards , but guess what it is like a virus spreading out of control and a lot of people are suffering ( collectors ) .

That's why i backed off because i got sick of the jerks flipping cards for ten times the amount because the sleep on ebay and forums snatching up cards and ransoming them off to collectors that really want them .

I personally got burned by our US and a few AUS members which i wont mention names early on in the piece of my collecting return ( Please know there are a lot of great guy's everywhere but the ratio of rip off artist's are much higher than good guy's ) but in reality it's cardboard not a life style so i got over it quickly as i could care less it means nothing in the real jungle , supposed to be an outlet but i guess garbage is everywhere and spoil what is supposed to be fun .

Sorry to say it but this hobby has gone to the crapper and we have a lot of respected desperate members to thank for it .

Thank god Ozcards is the best site on the planet with the least germ/collector ratio .

 

[WoobieZarz]

I personally think there's bigger issues in the hobby market these days, but in similar fashion, what cracks me up these days, are when people win something on ebay, and then post a mailday about it, with a price tag of around $20+ more on it.

If people wanted to buy it, they'd have bid on it during the ebay listing, yeah?

In what you're saying though, people will chase a currently hot player (ala Linsanity) JUST to grab a piece of the action, and then flip those cards a bit later on, when they might be "scheduled" for a breakout. It might pay off, it might not, but that's the way things go in a hobby that's entirely driven by the market. If no one bought cards, no one would sell them.

 

[supertoad]

I think you find this everywhere today, pretty much in every walk of life.

Everyone's geared to having that efficiency/market/competitive mentality like getting the lowest price on a green slip, best interest rate, quickest and cheapest value meal, quickest route to work, most effective tooth paste, and whatever else.

I had heard on A Current Affair that charities like St. Vinny's and the Smith Family were struggling to get donations, because more and more people had realized how you can get a lil cash using gumtree and ebay.

In terms of Linsanity, I was one of the first, but definitely not the biggest flippers of his NT cards. Loved his story and his play, and in October 2011 bought his NT Laundry Tag Auto 1/1 at an ebay auction for $185 delivered. People around me thought I was nuts. Lol, Warriors dropped him, Rockets waived him, Knicks had him behind 4 maybe 5 guards, who all got injured or the like.

It was the perfect storm that all flippers are hoping for again, so they try to create the storm through mini-hype bubbles.

Sold it when the insanity hit on February 16th 2012 (4 months later) for US$4800 minus all fees, currency exchange, insurance and postage, so around AUS$4100. And that's super cheap compared to the NT /25's that were BGS 9.5 and hitting 8 to 14k!!

But was I happy? Hell yes! Would you have done the same or similar thing if you were me? Its an odd thing when the $ start flashing in front of you and you dont want to miss out.

Car needed a gearbox and CV's changed, rego was due and me Wifey's car rego due too.And with the change I made a few sellers happy, got some stuff for home and had a week on the south coast with me family. So cheers to Linsanity and the buyer (who is still smashing the Lillards, Gold Prizms and high end).

There was an opportunity and I took it. I know this thread's about the pump and dump strategy, but I dont think we can really stand on moral highground and say that 'shame on this guy or that bloke' when we ourselves are quite likely to be taking advantage of someone in some way in our own lives.

Im not saying that we are all guilty of spruiking our PC to hype and boost a future sale. I dont do it, so when I say that I luv MKG's play or Mo Harkless or Tobia Harris or Faried, I mean it. But you and I both know that the attention that comes from success also equates to higher card prices, so its also about getting their cards at a good time and hopefully the lowest price.

Same rules always apply: market research, buyer beware, logic and rational thinking over impulse/emotion (which is pretty much very hard because we're emotionally attached to the PC player).

Im not a financial advisor or anything, but Im going to predict that the pump and dumps keep going as long as there are buyers willing to pay.

 

[A1CardsandGaming]

Please excuse my random rant but here are some of my views

What I have gathered from this thread.

- There are people building hype about certain cards by making comparisons to current NBA star players. - Not sure how this is a major issue if the person buying the card/s can ultimately make up their own mind.

*People cornering the market by picking up 1 or 2 cards in high numbers and then forcing the market price higher are the people that should be avoided in the hobby.

Some of my views (I am sure some of you wont agree)

- Buying cards cheap and selling for a higher price - This mentality has definitely affected the value of some collectible and Although not every part of the hobby should be like this, I can understand that it is something to expect when players become more popular from performing well or hitting a major milestone can increase the price.
(I am sure there are some exceptions) but One thing that drives me crazy is the whole argument of "I wanted it for my PC" is not worth a pinch. Lost count how many people change their PC players once the value goes up. The same goes for complaining about the selling price for cards you are chasing goes up. It is part of the hobby ! If you can no longer afford it then buy something else. eg build a bridge
If a seller is willing to hold onto the card until the best possible price comes along then so be it. With so many collectors flipping cards it is a bit rich to crucify another collector for doing the same thing.

We all lose money in this hobby on certain items and there is not much you can do to avoid it besides not buying anything at all.
Look at busting boxes for example, you spend $100/200+ for a box and will rarely get your money back (or even close to it) but the fun in taking a chance of busting a card that is worth heaps is what most understand and enjoy. Sadly some people consider busting a bad box as a slap in the face by the hobby instead of seeing it for what it really is.... FUN

RETAIL and Spending our hard earned money.
A sad fact with buying anything these days, be that Cards, Cars, latest technology and even items for around your home. Too many people seem to get upset that so many items we buy can easily lose value. All I can say is get used to it ! It is the one major negative of buying anything. You cant buy a card and expect to hold onto it for 10 years to find it is worth more. Nor can you buy a house and expect it to be worth more money in the future either. My suggestion is to stop making comparisons to the price you paid for something last year compared to the price it sells for today.
Having previous experience in the 2nd hand industry highlights this issue more than anything. It is a sad part of our reality.

CARD VALUE
This is where it gets messy. you get a few collectors keen on a card, the interested parties think the card is worth $?? and the Owner of the card thinks it is worth more. I have lost track how many times people complain about the card owner wanting too much and being a rip off. At the end of the day if you don't like the price you should just move on. Just because the owner thinks it is worth more does not mean that it isn't worth it just because you would not pay that price.

One story that makes a mockery of some collecting opinions is when I sold my 07/08 Kobe Bryant sweet shot auto 24/24.
I have always felt that with so many items on the market that there would be a premium value on something with unique numbering.
Lost count how many people were rude to me when they would ask about the Kobe (which I did not have up for sale) and when I said I would sell it for Double beckett value ($375bv) I got told I was pathetic and had no idea on a card value... To some degree this was true, I had no real idea on the value of the card and after a heated discussion I was questioning my own asking price and decided to list it for a crazy price on ebay to see what it was really worth.

I got an offer within the 1st three hours of listing and subsequently sold it for over $1700aud
-Was I shocked - Yes
-Did I think it was worth that much - No
-Does that mean it is not worth that much - No - Just because I would not pay that much does not mean it is worth any less to someone else.
-Did other collectors think this person was stupid paying so much ? - More than likely (As you read this I am sure that there are some shaking their heads) but at the end of the day it is part of the hobby. Some people might be willing to spend more to get an item than you are and crying about it later wont achieve anything. If you want to avoid missing out next time, put in a higher bid or offer

Another example of card value
One of my customers busted this little ripper
11/12 Fleer Retro precious metal gem Red - David Robinson #d 050/150
Most sales at the time were around the $150 mark.
Put on ebay and sold for $750

At the end of the day, so many people think they know everything about this hobby and how it works but the truth is "Nobody does"

If you think PC collectors should get the cards cheaper then if you are happy to, sell yours cheaper to them. If not, then don't.

Don't cry for too long when you make a bad choices in the hobby. Just learn from it and move on.

At the end of the day it is never going to be a perfect situation for everyone
because so many people have different views which is half the fun

End rant

 

[WhiteyTheCelticsFan]

I might be slightly guilty of this minus talking up the player/card. I will occaisonally buy cards off of eBay to resell on here or very rarely on eBay. The only reason I do that is because that is the only way I can fund myself to actually stay in the hobby and to be able to have a PC!

 

[crackberry]

supertoad what you did re: linsanity was smart mate. and I don't think anyone has problems with that

Please excuse my random rant but here are some of my views

What I have gathered from this thread.

- There are people building hype about certain cards by making comparisons to current NBA star players. - Not sure how this is a major issue if the person buying the card/s can ultimately make up their own mind.

*People cornering the market by picking up 1 or 2 cards in high numbers and then forcing the market price higher are the people that should be avoided in the hobby.

Some of my views (I am sure some of you wont agree)

- Buying cards cheap and selling for a higher price - This mentality has definitely affected the value of some collectible and Although not every part of the hobby should be like this, I can understand that it is something to expect when players become more popular from performing well or hitting a major milestone can increase the price.
(I am sure there are some exceptions) but One thing that drives me crazy is the whole argument of "I wanted it for my PC" is not worth a pinch. Lost count how many people change their PC players once the value goes up. The same goes for complaining about the selling price for cards you are chasing goes up. It is part of the hobby ! If you can no longer afford it then buy something else. eg build a bridge
If a seller is willing to hold onto the card until the best possible price comes along then so be it. With so many collectors flipping cards it is a bit rich to crucify another collector for doing the same thing.

We all lose money in this hobby on certain items and there is not much you can do to avoid it besides not buying anything at all.
Look at busting boxes for example, you spend $100/200+ for a box and will rarely get your money back (or even close to it) but the fun in taking a chance of busting a card that is worth heaps is what most understand and enjoy. Sadly some people consider busting a bad box as a slap in the face by the hobby instead of seeing it for what it really is.... FUN

RETAIL and Spending our hard earned money.
A sad fact with buying anything these days, be that Cards, Cars, latest technology and even items for around your home. Too many people seem to get upset that so many items we buy can easily lose value. All I can say is get used to it ! It is the one major negative of buying anything. You cant buy a card and expect to hold onto it for 10 years to find it is worth more. Nor can you buy a house and expect it to be worth more money in the future either. My suggestion is to stop making comparisons to the price you paid for something last year compared to the price it sells for today.
Having previous experience in the 2nd hand industry highlights this issue more than anything. It is a sad part of our reality.

CARD VALUE
This is where it gets messy. you get a few collectors keen on a card, the interested parties think the card is worth $?? and the Owner of the card thinks it is worth more. I have lost track how many times people complain about the card owner wanting too much and being a rip off. At the end of the day if you don't like the price you should just move on. Just because the owner thinks it is worth more does not mean that it isn't worth it just because you would not pay that price.

One story that makes a mockery of some collecting opinions is when I sold my 07/08 Kobe Bryant sweet shot auto 24/24.
I have always felt that with so many items on the market that there would be a premium value on something with unique numbering.
Lost count how many people were rude to me when they would ask about the Kobe (which I did not have up for sale) and when I said I would sell it for Double beckett value ($375bv) I got told I was pathetic and had no idea on a card value... To some degree this was true, I had no real idea on the value of the card and after a heated discussion I was questioning my own asking price and decided to list it for a crazy price on ebay to see what it was really worth.

I got an offer within the 1st three hours of listing and subsequently sold it for over $1700aud
-Was I shocked - Yes
-Did I think it was worth that much - No
-Does that mean it is not worth that much - No - Just because I would not pay that much does not mean it is worth any less to someone else.
-Did other collectors think this person was stupid paying so much ? - More than likely (As you read this I am sure that there are some shaking their heads) but at the end of the day it is part of the hobby. Some people might be willing to spend more to get an item than you are and crying about it later wont achieve anything. If you want to avoid missing out next time, put in a higher bid or offer

Another example of card value
One of my customers busted this little ripper
11/12 Fleer Retro precious metal gem Red - David Robinson #d 050/150
Most sales at the time were around the $150 mark.
Put on ebay and sold for $750

At the end of the day, so many people think they know everything about this hobby and how it works but the truth is "Nobody does"

If you think PC collectors should get the cards cheaper then if you are happy to, sell yours cheaper to them. If not, then don't.

Don't cry for too long when you make a bad choices in the hobby. Just learn from it and move on.

At the end of the day it is never going to be a perfect situation for everyone
because so many people have different views which is half the fun

End rant

nice rant Terry. but unfortunately you seem to have misunderstood and completely missed the point of the thread so you're right it is random
buying a card. incessantly pumping the player on every imaginable thread. but at the exact same time having that card listed on ebay is completely different from what you're saying

 

[A1CardsandGaming]

supertoad what you did re: linsanity was smart mate. and I don't think anyone has problems with that




nice rant Terry. but unfortunately you seem to have misunderstood and completely missed the point of the thread so you're right it is random
buying a card. incessantly pumping the player on every imaginable thread. but at the exact same time having that card listed on ebay is completely different from what you're saying

Definitely no chance of turning into a pro writer

I understand what you are saying about people pumping up certain players but I am not sure how they can totally dictate the value of a card by doing just that. Surely the player must be showing signs of potential. Can you direct me to an example of what you mean so I can perhaps understand it more

 

[WoobieZarz]

There's always a gamble in buying someone young and up-and-coming, no doubt, and hey, if money's to be had, and like the examples above, if someone's willing to pay an amount for something, then sure, you're going to do it. These "fads" in hot players come and go with each release.

I havent checked in ages, but how are the latest Fleer PMGs going? Still up at extraordinary prices? I'd assume they've dropped off now that the Prizm's are out.

That's how things go.

When talking "flippers", you know, the people who specifically buy a card on auction, ONLY to re-sell back here locally, those people are the "hobbiests" I despise. Actually despise is a tough word, so maybe dislike a little. As always, a card (or an item) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but buying to push a value up, or buying and TRYING to push a value up is poor form.

I've had people out-bid me on cards in previous times, ONLY to PM me (here and other forums) and try to sell the card to me for a profit! I've also heard stories from other collectors along similar lines! Just rubbish really!!

I'm not against people who others claim they "corner the market" on specific cards.
Anyone remember the Kobe Extra Exquisites? Worth a MINT if you have one, purely because there was a collector buying each and every one he could, JUST because he wanted them. Does it mean they're "worth" any more than say the MJs or Lebrons? Well of course it does, cos someone's willing to pay that much! Does it mean they could flip them around for those prices? Probably not, but all depends on how keen someone is to buy one/them.

Heck, I try to buy as many of the Premium Patches as I can. Some I can't of course, but that doesnt mean I'm willing to over-pay on an item because I want it. If I can't get it for the price I believe is fair, I move on.

 

[WoobieZarz]

EDIT: Yeah I think I went OT as well. Sorry about that.

I've not seen examples of people "pumping" up specific players to try to boost the prices. Only seen prices getting "pumped" up. - ala MJ Fleer PMGs ($10k, $15k, etc).

 

[crackberry]

Definitely no chance of turning into a pro writer

I understand what you are saying about people pumping up certain players but I am not sure how they can totally dictate the value of a card by doing just that. Surely the player must be showing signs of potential. Can you direct me to an example of what you mean so I can perhaps understand it more

dictating value of the card is only a secondary annoyance to me because as you say it is hard if the player isn't living up to the pump. it's more the spamming of threads that gets my skidmarks uneven (really showing my age haha)

 

[A1CardsandGaming]

dictating value of the card is only a secondary annoyance to me because as you say it is hard if the player isn't living up to the pump. it's more the spamming of threads that gets my skidmarks uneven (really showing my age haha)

Love the last description So do you mean how every new shiny product is called the next PMG etc