What's wrong with shilling?

Shilling seems to be a dirty term around this forum and anyone who is a "shiller" is seen as scummy. Fair enough... everyone is entitled to their opinion, including me.

I used to have a big problem with shilling, way back in the day when I was just starting out. Come to think of it, I used to think that gambling, drugs, and debauchery were evil things but that's another matter.

However, having been through the trials and tribulations of being an eBay seller, I no longer have an issue with proxy bidding.

eBay is far too biased in favour of the buyer. Included in their arsenal:

* Buyers can place unusual small increment bids, making the auction look shilled and thereby scare other buyers away

* Buyers can contact other bidders and make up stories/lies about the authenticity of the item or reputation of the seller, thereby scaring other buyers away

* Buyers can use auction sniper to bid in the last second to grab a bargain

* Buyers can take advantage of mispelled words or accidental bad category listings

* Buyers can pretend to not receive an item and initiate chargebacks via Paypal

* Buyers have the power to leave negative feedback for no particular reason and thereby can often get away with not paying for items or attempting to negotiate after the auction.

The way I see it, shilling is just one of the very few tools that a seller has in order to maximise their sale.

I think it's fair to say that most sellers who shill their items are not greedy evil people who are trying to exploit others. Moreso, they are every day people who are just trying to get a fair market price for their item. In other words, the proxy bids are simply reserves.

Given that eBay Australia no longer allows reserves to be set (this is a disgrace), what is wrong with members setting their own reserves through proxy bids? You might say, "why not simply start the item at the price you want!?" Well, good point but there's two problems with that. First we all know that items tend to be much harder to sell when the starting bid is high. It just "looks bad" that there is an item sitting there with no bids on it. The buyer mindset is that "Wow must be a rip-off, no-one has bid". But if they were to actually do a completed item search, they would find that the item is indeed selling for a fair market price. Of course most people won't bother, they will just flick through for the next one that is cheaper... Second, it costs a lot more to list an item at a fair market price than it does to list it at a buck and have someone place a proxy bid.

In summary, shill bidding is not unethical or intrinsically bad. It is however illegal according to eBay's policies. Ebay ONLY care about the bottom line and that's cold hard cash. If shilling genuinely inflated the value of items right across the marketplace, there is no way in the world that eBay would outlaw it - since they miss out on a boatload of money. The only reason why it is illegal is because the majority of people who shill are using it as a reserve bid. Ebay hate this because they lose a lot of money from listing fees.

Until such time that eBay reinstates reserves or drastically reduces listing fees, I have no problem with people "shilling".

Nah stuff that. If you want to get a certain price then use a reserve or if in OZ a higher starting price. Pay the damn fees and get over it. eBay has helped move an item that might of othewise gone unsold or COST you an ad in the trading post like the old days and the hassle of taking phone calls and meeting buyers etc. Remember that? We have it easy these days and still complain.

You've changed man, it used to be about the ass pushing up our prices. :-P

While I hate eBay really they provide a service so just pay for it.

Interesting topic as always Jimmy J, and I think that your points are all very well made.
My issue with Shill bidding is simply that eBay is an Auction based site.
Sellers have the choice to use a higher starting price or a reserve to get a certain price.
If they don't choose to do that then buyers should be able to bid on items in good faith that the only people bidding against them are genuine bidders.
After all, it's supposed to be an Auction.

One problem I have when buying, is if there is a shill-bidder on there, they push the price, instead of placing 1 bid for a reserve. You see bidders pushing prices up by anywhere between $1 - $10 per bid - this is not always confirmable to be shillers.

I do agree that Ebay's policies suck ass, and are never "helpful" for the sellers, as they're always trying to get as much money from them as they can, so in a way, why can't the seller get as much as they can?

I remember the first time I listed some stuff on Ebay, I had a mate put a few bids on them to help me out (am I a once-self confessed shiller??). And one time, I actually MADE him win a card I had, just so I could see what it was "worth". Sure I paid the fees, and didnt sell the card, but had a fair idea of what it would sell for - to decide if I was happy to sell for that (there were no completed listings).

In the end tho, there's never any REASON to push prices, but if you have a reserve in mind, have someone bid that amount, rather than starting your listings higher.

My 2 bob....

Quite simply it comes down to right and wrong !!
Regardless of ebays ripoff fees..its dishonest to place bids on your own gear...
And any seller making excuses about why they do it are simply kidding themselves.

When you bid on a house at auction the vendors are allowed to put in one "vendor's bid" but it has to be announced to the bidders. In years gone buy the auctioneer could just accept bids from trees and birds to get things going.
My point is, if you can do it for property worth hundreds of thousands or even millions maybe Ebay can come up with a system that allows sellers one "vendor bid" whether disclosed or undisclosed.

Isn't the option of the seller setting the starting price already effectively a vendor bid?

Isn't the option of the seller setting the starting price already effectively a vendor bid?

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Yes it is...but I'm making a comparison to property auctions where as vendor you or the auctioneer can establish a starting price and a reserve price and have a vendors bid along the way.
I'm not saying that it's the right method...but it does give some some extra power/control back to the seller which is what I think Jimmy was saying to begin with.

That's a good point you make there.
I guess it comes down to the disclosure of the Vendors Bid.

Having said all that, the easy way would be to re-introduce reserve prices wouldn't it??

LMAO JJ

some valid points from everyone

I use ebay stores to get around auction reserves. fairly cheap @ about 10c / 30 days regardlss of price - unless it sells, then you pay final value fees (slightly higher than auc).

chadjaja® said:

Nah stuff that. If you want to get a certain price then use a reserve or if in OZ a higher starting price. Pay the damn fees and get over it.

eBay has helped move an item that might of othewise gone unsold or COST you an ad in the trading post like the old days and the hassle of taking phone calls and meeting buyers etc. Remember that? We have it easy these days and still complain.

You've changed man, it used to be about the ass pushing up our prices. :-P

While I hate eBay really they provide a service so just pay for it.

Click to expand...

Just pay for the service and get over it you say.... well fair enough, that's what most people do, regardless of whatever the pirates from eBay throw at them. Meanwhile eBay now rake in about 1 billion dollars a year in profit - google it.

eBay has been around since 1995. The internet has been pubically available since 1991. It is now a fact of life and as a consumer, it's silly to adopt the attitude that we somehow should 'lump it' because we are lucky enough to have the privilege. Should I accept junk-mail, viruses, pop-ups, trojans, ad-ware etc. as being part and parcel of using email and the internet in general?

Anyhow, it's all hypothetical from my point of view, since I no longer use eBay to sell. I just think it's interesting. I used to believe that shillers were bad etc. but I also used to think that cars would be running on water by now (since Beyond2000 told me ).

In summary, I maintain that shilling is not a moral issue, it is a fiscal one. How many of you have said "Hey mate, I've already had an offer of X on this item" when negotiating a price with someone, even though there was no such offer and you were just trying to ensure a market price? When it occurs on eBay it's no different, only less transparent.

Like Marcus said, bring back Reserve price.

I wonder though, if it can't be introduced in Australia because of our local Fair Trading laws???

But yeah, I understand your point about sellers getting a better deal, and maybe open my mind up to shill sellers boosting price to a fair price. But also JJ, there are many more who then inflate their prices further to unreasonable prices, and all that ends up happening is you either pay way to much for a card you are really needing, or the shiller wins the card.

I really have no idea why they introduced that rule in Australia. The only thing I can think of is that our marketplace is relatively weak - meaning that too many items were finishing below their reserve and eBay was missing out on money.

BTW a side point, in the first few years of eBay, shill bidding was perfectly legal according to their policies. They only changed the rules when they brought out new structures for their listing fees - hardly surprising...

One thing I find strange on OZ Ebay, is that if I look at the items I have listed currently in My Ebay Summary at the top of "Items I'm selling" it still says - Items with bids/RESERVE MET. Why would Ebay retain that mention of a Reserve price if the option no longer exists?

I don't think that shilling inflates the value of items to unreasonable prices. Otherwise, it would be legalised by eBay. When there is an unusually high sale due to shilling, it is rarely ever completed because the other bidders kick up a fuss and email the winner. I have seen this time and time again. Generally speaking, all shilling does is ensures a fair price.

It's easy to counter shilling from a buyers point of view - simply place a bid of what you're willing to pay and leave it. If the seller pushes it up to your max bid, then great. Both the seller and buyer are happy. If they get greedy and try to push it more, they are lumped with the item and fees.

jimmy jackson said:

It's easy to counter shilling from a buyers point of view - simply place a bid of what you're willing to pay and leave it. If the seller pushes it up to your max bid, then great. Both the seller and buyer are happy. If they get greedy and try to push it more, they are lumped with the item and fees.

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WELL SAID JJ!

Allstar cards inc said:

If I look at the items I have listed currently in My Ebay Summary at the top of "Items I'm selling" it still says

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MORE SPAM!!!

That's weird all-star. I haven't sold in a long time, maybe someone else knows...

It just means how many items have bids. the "reserve" is the start price.

I don't get it All-Star, what does it "still says"??

Or do I just "not get it" at all? LMAO!