Panini. Smart or just plain stupid?

ooneil said:

No i understand the point he is making but Select's high end cards are still no where near what you guys get from Panini.

Here is a "manufactured patch" card from Select. The logo is screen printed onto a wafer thin piece of cotton and the glue leached through the patch when it was stuck onto the card. Give me the Panini manufactured patch in the original post any day of the week.



As much as some of you may not like Panini take some time to look at what you get from a Select release. It will make you feel better about things.

Click to expand...

Is that selects first attempt? If so its not to bad

You get what you pay for! Compare NT, gold standard to season update. Even UD had their high and low end products.

matty83 said:

Is that selects first attempt? If so its not to bad

Click to expand...

Check it out in hand. Its an abomination!

The one area I criticise Panini for is lack of on card autos and redemptions (excessive and length in getting them). You can't compare this and say Upper Deck did this too and took XX months for redemptions or didn't give them at all because THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE TOO!!! You can't promote a products big chase hits and then have them as redemptions or wait months or years for them or give them out to other unhappy customers as replacements!

You cannot however fault Panini for catering to the spectrum of collectors - low and high end, inserts game used and autographs, on card and stickers, and innovative ideas (heck if there's going to be redemptions why not make it a bit of fun with this draft idea that they're going to do in October hey?). Now we can go on about "high end" being logomen with sticker autos in a $2000 product or whatever it is BUT yes it comes back to if there's something you like, buy/collect it, if there's not - take a break or buy some other products/sports and see what they come out with in the next few years.

Don't fault you for the frustration though Jack but agree with others when they say you can't compare UD Premier ($300+/box 10 cards or whatever it was) and R&S at 24packs $80. I hear ya though!

I first read your post about 5 minutes after you put it up, and I thought it best not to start a rant of my own in rebuttal. The main issues that I had with your post have mainly been covered off by many of the people already, but I thought that I would still add my 2 cents worth, rather than the $3 rant I wanted to go with earlier.

Firstly the apples with oranges comparison that you made between Premier and R&S/Contenders is totally unfair and unrealistic, to the point that it makes your argument irrelevant. I could make some of UD's low/mid-end products look pretty crap compared to Gold Standard and NT as well.

Secondly, I am not sure what redemptions you have outstanding, or whether you simply took the worst redemption story you ever heard and now tell people that this happens all the time. Well I can assure you this is not the case at all. My best case redemption story ended with me having my redeemed auto in my hands within 3 weeks, and the longest I have waited for a redemption is 6 months, and I was given ample opportunity to take a replacement, but I was ALWAYS given the choice by Panini, as opposed to a number of Topps and UD redemptions where I simply received an alternative card in the mail with a note outlining that "due to the redemption card not being available, please accept this replacement card of equivalent value". Sometimes a simple update request with a polite note asking for any new news is all it takes to get Panini off its hands, and personally I have found the CS staff at Panini top shelf.

As a set collector I have been more than happy with a number of Panini's releases to date over the last 2+ years, not all of them, but some of them, so they are the ones that I target, seems a simple approach, but one that seems to work for most people - if you dont like it, dont buy it. Having said that, I cannot imagine that there has not been a single Panini release (even one each year I dare say) that has not got you interested, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you are more than entitled to your own opinion, so hopefully something out of their 12/13 releases might get you going (perhaps).

Oh well, so much for not ranting.

Reading it over I guess I didn't really make my point clear enough. Kind of hard to over a computer screen. But what i'm basicly saying is that atleast UD had other collectable products just not exquisite. Like for me the only Panini product I would buy is NT (If I had the money) it's the only one that really offers you any sort of value IMO. UD had Premeir, Black, Ultimate, SPX, SPA and SPRT all beautiful.

Panini would of had me hook, line and sinker with black box if they didn't stick those hideous white stickers on them. What's wrong with leaving a blank space and signing in silver or gold ink? Even Panini's "Higher end" products miss the mark for me. So don't go on about these apples and oranges because i'm pretty sure Gold standard and black box started out at $200 a box the same as UD SPX, SPRT and ultimate.

Hey Jack

I think you have raised many valid points in your discussions. The sticking point for me is the redemption part from Panini. Multiple redemptions in just one box, can be mid- to high- end boxes. The first thing about this is that it is no longer worthwhile keeping boxes for long term because the redemptions have an expiry date. I can no longer buy a box now and sell it later. Second, the design of those redemptions from panini are absolutely crap!!! I can't see why they can't put a decent design to their redemption card and even try to make a collectible as a redemption card. It would really add value to their products I believe as it gives collectors twice the amount of cards to collect as a redeemed card and as a redemption card. Third, getting a sticker auto on a redemption card is absolutely rubbish. a redemption card is meant to give Panini to follow up with the players in getting the cards autographed!!!! If you getting a sticker autograph, you really just means poor logistics on the part of Panini in getting the card signed. Forth, not all redemption will be fulfilled, why make that promise if you can't fulfilled it. Just leave it altogether. Just makes people more frustrated if they are not going to deliver sometime they promise. End of rant.

kingjack said:

Reading it over I guess I didn't really make my point clear enough. Kind of hard to over a computer screen. But what i'm basicly saying is that atleast UD had other collectable products just not exquisite. Like for me the only Panini product I would buy is NT (If I had the money) it's the only one that really offers you any sort of value IMO. UD had Premeir, Black, Ultimate, SPX, SPA and SPRT all beautiful.

Panini would of had me hook, line and sinker with black box if they didn't stick those hideous white stickers on them. What's wrong with leaving a blank space and signing in silver or gold ink? Even Panini's "Higher end" products miss the mark for me. So don't go on about these apples and oranges because i'm pretty sure Gold standard and black box started out at $200 a box the same as UD SPX, SPRT and ultimate.

Click to expand...

So, it seems that it is just a personal opinion on designs! I don't think anyone will Criticise you for not liking particular designs, but personally I get sick of people just saying that 'all panini designs are crap'.

anakinleo said:

Hey Jack

I think you have raised many valid points in your discussions. The sticking point for me is the redemption part from Panini. Multiple redemptions in just one box, can be mid- to high- end boxes. The first thing about this is that it is no longer worthwhile keeping boxes for long term because the redemptions have an expiry date. I can no longer buy a box now and sell it later. Second, the design of those redemptions from panini are absolutely crap!!! I can't see why they can't put a decent design to their redemption card and even try to make a collectible as a redemption card. It would really add value to their products I believe as it gives collectors twice the amount of cards to collect as a redeemed card and as a redemption card. Third, getting a sticker auto on a redemption card is absolutely rubbish. a redemption card is meant to give Panini to follow up with the players in getting the cards autographed!!!! If you getting a sticker autograph, you really just means poor logistics on the part of Panini in getting the card signed. Forth, not all redemption will be fulfilled, why make that promise if you can't fulfilled it. Just leave it altogether. Just makes people more frustrated if they are not going to deliver sometime they promise. End of rant.

Click to expand...

Firstly Alex, just a simple way to look at the redemption process. How much do you think it costs Panini per year in postage to send out redemptions? $2-$4 each plus $20 each for high end cards. What company in their right mind would not be trying their best to reduce or eliminate this cost?

Secondly, STOP POSTING IN BORING BASKETBALL CARD THREADS! You are in LA!!! Go have a bloody ball!!! Lol

With Hockey having NHL licensed products from both UD and Panini, I'm finding Panini's designs a lot more appealing.

For instance compare 2 similarly placed 11/12 products Panini Limited and UD Ultimate Collection.

Limited is strong, striking and bold, where as Ulitmate Collection is drab, chunky and really tired looking. This season's SP Game Used also had a really rigid and drab design as well and SP Authentic's rookie cards used the same design as the base card, with a 'R' next to the card number as an indication that it was a rookie. Lazy!

Limited also gave me a rather spiffy jersey auto, that was redeemed in 3-4 weeks.

Kingjack, I'm going to talk about the redemption cards you showed. With the select - as with all australian sports card products it was known in advance who would be signing - with the 2011-12 rookie situation, it is not known. also, you have to think about costs. Select makes - what? - 2 products a year per sport for two sports? Compare that to how many NBA/NFL/MLB and NHL products in just one year? I've tried explaining this to some whinging collectors over in beckett but in reverse - talking about the limited amount of products we have for our sports compared to the wide range they have. It simply comes down to this - some people just don't want to listen and aren't prepared to look at things from a different point of view. they have their opinion and will not listen to what anyone says unless it is in 100% agreement. Take it as you will.

The thing with you guys talking about making the redemption cards looking all pretty... do you have any idea how many they would have to do that to/for??? It would be SOOOOOO expensive to make that many!

I guess Panini are actually being quite smart. The problem for me personally is the all the chances at "scoring" a junky auto. But, somewhere out there is a player collector that wants that guy. The hobby has changed alot.

I'd like to see some rare cards but only of the the top 20-30 guys. Some guys have pulled an awesome case hit from Preferred Silhouette for example of some average guy that sells for $100 and then another guy gets an All Star/Superstar worth $700+.

Panini are really mixing up their stuff each year to cater for all, that's a great thing, I just hate sticker autos. I wish they would ditch alot of the crap and concentrate on getting on-card autos of the top guys only.

Nat treasures was a nice set, they've done well to move on from that so it does'nt get stagnant.

People are complaining about Hoops, but does anyone remember collecting Hoops in the early 90's? It was junk.

I have'nt had to deal with redemptions because I have'nt bought Panini but that would frustrate the hell out of me.

At the end of the day, I'd like to see UD and others come back. They're all so different.

hairyangryfella said:

The thing with you guys talking about making the redemption cards looking all pretty... do you have any idea how many they would have to do that to/for??? It would be SOOOOOO expensive to make that many!

Click to expand...

Pretty simple then. Don't make so many damn redemptions. 8 months on and i'm still waiting for a scrub auto to complete my set. Pretty weak considering he has signed hundreds probably thousands of other crummy sticker auto's for other products and i'm waiting for an on card RC auto.

Kingjack, clearly you are not thinking about the logistics here. It's okay for select to do what they have done with redemptions - the bulk of teams are located in the melbourne region with only a handful outside of Melbourne. And even then, select limits a)what players sign and b) how many copies hence they can do up nice designs for the exchange cards. What you don't seem to realise with panini are these simple facts - the teams are spread over a country that is almost as large as australia, there are nearly twice as many teams in the NBA as there are in the AFL meaning nearly twice as many players, not all players are U.S based and panini only has players sign when they are in dallas where panini america's headquarters are. Then there is the legal issue - when a player agrees to sign for a company they are under contract to meet that obligation. If that means the player has to travel to dallas in their off-season to do so, then that is what they have to do. If a player does not sign in time for a product to be printed and released, why should we blame the card company because the player didn't meet their end of an agreement? If you want to have a whinge about redemptions, contact the players in question via their team and bitch to them about not meeting their contractual obligations.

taffster74 said:

Kingjack, clearly you are not thinking about the logistics here. It's okay for select to do what they have done with redemptions - the bulk of teams are located in the melbourne region with only a handful outside of Melbourne. And even then, select limits a)what players sign and b) how many copies hence they can do up nice designs for the exchange cards. What you don't seem to realise with panini are these simple facts - the teams are spread over a country that is almost as large as australia, there are nearly twice as many teams in the NBA as there are in the AFL meaning nearly twice as many players, not all players are U.S based and panini only has players sign when they are in dallas where panini america's headquarters are. Then there is the legal issue - when a player agrees to sign for a company they are under contract to meet that obligation. If that means the player has to travel to dallas in their off-season to do so, then that is what they have to do. If a player does not sign in time for a product to be printed and released, why should we blame the card company because the player didn't meet their end of an agreement? If you want to have a whinge about redemptions, contact the players in question via their team and bitch to them about not meeting their contractual obligations.

Click to expand...

Sorry, don't really agree with this. That is the BIG problem, Panini waiting for players to come to THEM; I know Panini recently went on the road to get on-card autos for one release, THAT is what we need to see more of and more often; not for just one set.

If they want to offer all these Autos, then they have to do the damned worked to get them, not be lazy asses & try to save $$$ and wait for players to come to them.

My problem is still how many autos they're going for. Just too many guys and their are alot of past "legends" that just don't excite anybody.

Lower the player list on the autos.

Have 1 rookie auto set.

and 1 with the best guys they can get in the nba

and another with some legends that guys want to see.

Then make sure they're on card and the autos are on a nice card

I do think Panini are starting to do some good things though. They're getting there.