One For The Ages.....

I have to say MJ was the greatest.

His superior will to win, his domination of games, his defense, his clutch shooting, his overall game to me will always be better than Kobe.

Kobe may be a better scorer than MJ but overall MJ gets my nod.

Cheers
Matt

Your joking right.
OK, this isn't my argument, but just a variety of points disproving Kobe.

First of all :

Nothing would have changed, Kobe would have 3 more rings, and that's that. Would MJ still be THE MAN?

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Yes, MJ would still be the man, and maybe Shaq would be in the discussions for the GOAT, Kobe would still be Shaq's second in line.

Secondly :

Obviously supporting cast has had the biggest impact on MJs career, with players wanting to play with him, but does that make MJ a better player, or a better team mate?

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Kobe had Shaq, who (with respects to Scottie) is more dominant than any teammate Jordan ever had. Michael never had a dominant postman, Horace Grant, Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman don't count, and they still won.

Here's the difference in supporting casts, Kobe has a group of guys who CAN play, but underachieve, and he in NO WAY affects their performance or makes them better (see Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Smush Parker, Luke Walton) - And all those guys can play, they just underform.

Jordan takes a bunch of good players, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Bill Wennington, Randy Brown, Jason Caffy, Luc Longley and turns them into a group of supporting cast who helped him win 6 championships in 8 seasons.

Jordan makes players better, while Bryant has players who are good, but they underperform while playing with him, what does that say about Kobe?

Next :

Kobe won 3 rings with Shaq, and then the Lakers went down hill from there.
If Shaq had stayed, and the Lakers won another 3, then what??

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That's right, the Lakers went down hill. They struggled to make the playoffs, and a Shaquille O'Neal team went to the Conference Finals two years in a row and won the 2006 Championship. A 32+ year old O'Neal had a bigger impact on the game than a young Kobe, how could Kobe even measure up to MJ?

Another point :

I know MJ lead the Bulls to their 6 Championships, but MJ didnt do it all...

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That's true, and maybe that's what made MJ better. He actually helped involve his teammates and play in a team concept. Kobe has had some very good players with him, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker, Devean George, Brian Cook etc etc. These guys aren't scrubs, maybe if he made them better and showed confidence in his teammates they'd step up and all of a sudden you have the 1990's Bulls.

Fill a team with good players and win?? :

Fill a team full of good players and they're bound to win.

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Not neccessarily. How many championships has Steve Nash won? He's a player who's truly great, makes his players better and really works in a team environment despite the fact that he can be offensively dominant.

Just using Nash as an example, he's been on two very great teams.

Dallas (3 All-Stars) - Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Dirk Nowitzki + Bench
Phoenix (3 All-Stars) - Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion + Bench

Both those teams had great benches, so teams full of good players aren't neccessarily "bound" to win, so many great players who were in teams with "good supporting casts" never won despite the fact that on paper their teams were better than the teams who beat them. (See the 1990's when the Bulls prevented good rosters such as Indiana, Seattle, Phoenix from winning)

And lastly :

They both have very similar games, teamleaders, scoring champions, etc.

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No they don't.

Kobe Bryant scores 62 points and 81 points in regular season games.

Michael Jordan averaged nearly 40 ppg in vital playoff series.

Kobe Bryant hits the game winner or game tying three pointer in the finals against the Detroit Pistons, but they lose the series.

MJ hits the game winning three or field goal, that wins them the championship.

Kobe goes off in the regular season, but doesn't show up in the playoffs and can't deliver his team into the next round.

Michael is even MORE dominant in the regular season than Kobe, but leads his team in the playoffs as well.

Kobe hits amazing shots in regular season games, but that means nothing.

MJ hits amazing shots in the playoffs, when it actually matters.

But the bottom line, if we aren't talking about wins, and we're just talking about the players themselves in the regular season:

Kobe is a great scorer. (35.4 ppg career high + Three 30+ ppg seasons)

Michael was better. (37.1 ppg career high + Eight 30+ ppg seasons)

Kobe is a great defender. (All-Defensive Team Selections)

Michael was a better defender. (Defensive Player of the Year Award)

Kobe is a great regular season performer (Numerous All-NBA 1st Team)

Michael was a better regular season performer (5-Time Regular Season MVP)

And about the statistics, Michael averaged more points per game, more rebounds per game, more assists per game, more steals per game, more blocks per game, better field goal percentage, better free throw percentage.

And he actually had people on his team who could block shots and get rebounds.

Great write up Jim....all makes sence...

All makes sense, except the part about Shaq going on to win the championship. Didnt Alonzo do more than Shaq in that series, and didnt WADE win the Championship?

I hear all of your statement tho Jim, good points.

I'm still not convinced that MJ was/is a better player than Kobe.

I guess it's cos they came from different eras. I mean there was NO ONE that could stop MJ, but the league has far superior defenders this day and age, who can sometimes contain Kobe.

Do you think Kobe would beat MJ 1 on 1 Scott?

Yeah I think Jim pretty much said what needed to be said , I belive Mj was better because he made hes team better not himself ( I thought this before Jimbo comment), thats prolly why he won champoinships, all I know is theres no way id spoil a chance to have shaq on my team for aslong as possible even if it meant crunching my fat headed ego. Kobe is good though, no body scores 82 points specially with the amount of good players in the leauge today thats another factor to consider , the players in the leuage are alot better today overall in my opinion so its very hard to compare. Mj might of had it easier maybe not but maybe thats why I tend to stay out of these arguments and let history be. Take wilt he would of been playing against a bunch of white chumps and just killed them being a giant monster prolly like shaq but back in hes day, crazy.

MavsMan© said:

All makes sense, except the part about Shaq going on to win the championship. Didnt Alonzo do more than Shaq in that series, and didnt WADE win the Championship?

I hear all of your statement tho Jim, good points.

I'm still not convinced that MJ was/is a better player than Kobe.

I guess it's cos they came from different eras. I mean there was NO ONE that could stop MJ, but the league has far superior defenders this day and age, who can sometimes contain Kobe.

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I thought MJ was undisputedly the greatest ever!!

But Kobe is amazing, 82 points in 2006, that is unheard of. Honestly, the man is the best basketball player on the planet right now, but I'd still take Michael over him as a better player and better team player.

Your very right about the fact, that in the 80's the specialized defensive players were forwards/centres, not as many guards and perimeter players although there were some great defenders in that era still! (Sidney Moncrief is just one of). But let's not forget, MJ was so good one on one, he was always double or triple teamed, so I don't think it matters that there wasn't one great defender.

And, yes Dwyane Wade nearly single handedly won the Finals series for the Heat, but Shaquille had a huge impact on things that lead to the finals such as previous playoff series, the regular season etc. You can't hinge a championship solely on the Finals series and Shaq definately made his presence felt that season regardless of lower statistics. The fact that he's standing underneath the basket is enough..

MavsMan© said:

All makes sense, except the part about Shaq going on to win the championship. Didnt Alonzo do more than Shaq in that series, and didnt WADE win the Championship?

I hear all of your statement tho Jim, good points.

I'm still not convinced that MJ was/is a better player than Kobe.

I guess it's cos they came from different eras. I mean there was NO ONE that could stop MJ, but the league has far superior defenders this day and age, who can sometimes contain Kobe.

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are u kidding me right?

jordan era has produced some of the greats of the nba. players like magic,bird,drexler,hakeem,shaq,ewing,reggie miller,isiah,david robinson,stockton,malone,alonzo,sir charles,etc if those players in the jordan era played now i think the nba will be different.

gemz23 said:

are u kidding me right?

jordan era has produced some of the greats of the nba. players like magic,bird,drexler,hakeem,shaq,ewing,reggie miller,isiah,david robinson,stockton,malone,alonzo,sir charles,etc if those players in the jordan era played now i think the nba will be different.

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Scotty is talking defensive wise.

I don't really know the 90's THAT well though in terms of defense.

Who were some premiere defensive stoppers?

Guys that would be the equivalent of todays Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Andrei Kirilenko, Caron Butler, Larry Hughes etc etc.

Guys like Gary Payton, Mookie Blaylock, Nate McMillan, and a few others, some from Detroit, some from Houston, but no one really as dee'd up as those of today's game.

Which is why it's hard to say that MJ was the better player.

I guess it's also hard to say that Kobe was the better player too.

This must be why it's not ideal to compare past and present players, but it's a point that always comes up, like Lebron, he's the "next MJ", etc, etc.

I agree that MJ made his team mates better, and I'm not up to speed in why Shaq left LA, was it because he demanded too much, or did Kobe demand too much? Or was it in fact poor coaching that lead to Shaq's departure.

So it's settled, MJ is/was the better? That's cool.

jimboiitmac said:

Scotty is talking defensive wise.

I don't really know the 90's THAT well though in terms of defense.

Who were some premiere defensive stoppers?

Guys that would be the equivalent of todays Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Andrei Kirilenko, Caron Butler, Larry Hughes etc etc.

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to name a few...

Mookie Blaylock, Dekembe Mutombo, Gary Payton, Hakeem, Admiral, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen (not count since MJ played with him hehe), Zo...Joe Dumars, Charles Oakley, Nate McMillan, Horace Grant, John Stockton, Anthony Mason, Eddie Jones, Alvin Robertson, Buck Williams and Larry Nance...

But going against Raja Bell or Gerald Wallace today is pretty tough for kobe too...

I didn't vote this poll, coz i think these both players are one of the greatest individuals and team leaders... other than that, there's nothing to compare to them... both jordan and kobe are/were arrogant to their teammates, but with kobe, Phil Jackson cannot pull them off together, but with Jordan he did 6 times..

that's the only difference to me...

Thanks Scotty for the thread... it's interesting to see how people make comments..

MavsMan© said:

This must be why it's not ideal to compare past and present players, but it's a point that always comes up, like Lebron, he's the "next MJ", etc, etc.

I agree that MJ made his team mates better, and I'm not up to speed in why Shaq left LA, was it because he demanded too much, or did Kobe demand too much? Or was it in fact poor coaching that lead to Shaq's departure.

So it's settled, MJ is/was the better? That's cool.

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Agreed, but factually, until someone wins 6 rings in 8 years, wins 5 MVP's + a Defensive POY, averages 30+ ppg for his career and dominated the world on a sporting, economic, marketting and financial level like Jordan did, there will never be another.

Shaq left because there was tension between Kobe + Shaq, and the owner or GM of the LA Lakers chose to keep Kobe on his team as a pose to Shaq although one of them had to be moved.

jimboiitmac said:

Agreed, but factually, until someone wins 6 rings in 8 years, wins 5 MVP's + a Defensive POY, averages 30+ ppg for his career and dominated the world on a sporting, economic, marketting and financial level like Jordan did, there will never be another.

Shaq left because there was tension between Kobe + Shaq, and the owner or GM of the LA Lakers chose to keep Kobe on his team as a pose to Shaq although one of them had to be moved.

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That will NEVER happen tho Jim. This day and age, the game is played in a whole new way.

Look back to 1958-59, the Celts won 8 straight, dropped 1, and won another 2. I don't know who was on their rosters during that time, but I'm sure Bill Russell was a huge part of it. The NBA didnt record MVP awards until 1968-69.

I just don't understand why MJ is the greatest, when there's been so many greats before him.

Because as time goes on the league improves fans think that makes older players less skilled or important Scotty ;-)

Was Ray Brabham any less the champ just coz I can ride faster than his car travelled back then now LOL

MavsMan© said:

That will NEVER happen tho Jim. This day and age, the game is played in a whole new way.

Look back to 1958-59, the Celts won 8 straight, dropped 1, and won another 2. I don't know who was on their rosters during that time, but I'm sure Bill Russell was a huge part of it. The NBA didnt record MVP awards until 1968-69.

I just don't understand why MJ is the greatest, when there's been so many greats before him.

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The Poll is Jordan vs Kobe...i never said Jordan was GOAT, i said he's better than Kobe

mattyj said:

The Poll is Jordan vs Kobe...i never said Jordan was GOAT, i said he's better than Kobe

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Exactly, I know I diverted from the topic as well.

And MAYBE Jordan as the GOAT is up for grabs between guys like him, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar etc etc.

But when it's Jordan v Kobe - Jordan gets the vote everytime. (ironically not in this thread though.)