Kallis v Sobers

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bjs127

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Good article by Harsha Bogle.....amazingly similar stats, but Sobers will always be regarded as the greatest all-rounder of all time.

Kallis's record is incredible - higher average than Ponting (with more 100s) and an additional 270 wickets!!!

Harsha Bhogle: Kallis is the Sobers of his generation | Opinion | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo


Some great overall batting stats in this article on Kallis too [and where everyone sits in Tests since 1999 EXCLUDING (rightly) Zimbabwe & Bangladesh]:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/495719.html
 
I was never able to see Sobers but am lucky enough to see Kallis. Kallis is one of the greatest players I've ever seen and one of may favourites to watch!
 
Yeh I'm the same as Liam. I have only heard about Sobers and seen his stats.
There stats are actually ridiculously similar and Kallis should go down as one of the top 3 allrounders of alltime.
I love watching Kallis and he is one of my favourite players
 
I've always found it amazing the lack of adulation that Kallis gets. He is clearly one of the best batsmen of the past 20 years and his stats stand up to everyone bar Bradman... Plus he's a world class slip fieldsmen and has nearly 300 Test wickets as well.

What holds him back is that he doesn't have an explosive game that excites fans like a Sehwag, Symonds or MS Dhoni, he doesn't have an army of biased fans who deify his every move like Tendulkar and he's never scored a huge eye catching score like Lara, Gayle or Jayawardene (the 200 he scored against India last month was his first 200 at Test level). But what he does is consistently score runs, take chances in the slips and while it's less than when he was young, take wickets with his medium-fast.

But the cricket fans of this world are a weird bunch; just recently i saw a poll asking who the greatest Test cricketer ever was in which Tendulkar got 65% of votes...
 
Tendulkar is the best Batsman of his generation, if not of all time. Kallis is the Best all-rounder of the last three decades, if not of all time.

Ponting does not even compare to these two.
 
BorderMailSpecial said:
Tendulkar is the best Batsman of his generation, if not of all time. Kallis is the Best all-rounder of the last three decades, if not of all time.

Ponting does not even compare to these two.
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Bit harsh on Ponting's batting ability and fielding skills. He is one of the best ever batting, and it's only because he is waning, whereas Tendulkar and Kallis are not, that he cops criticism now. Add that he is a crap captain and tactician, there is plenty of heat.

But in Ponting's defence, he has scored 10,000+ runs, captained a 16-0 win streak, won an Ashes 5-0 in a whitewash and captained 2 - that's right TWO - undefeated World Cup campaigns.

I love Kallis. Very under-rated. Comparing different eras is tricky too.

As for Tendulkar, a wonderful man and bat. BUT...he plays in an era of helmets, padding, covered wickets, a gazillion tests per year (although India has eased off on that front) and did fail as a captain too. However, the Tendulkar and Bradman debate will always rage on.
 
The Mad Hatter said:
Bit harsh on Ponting's batting ability and fielding skills. He is one of the best ever batting, and it's only because he is waning, whereas Tendulkar and Kallis are not, that he cops criticism now. Add that he is a crap captain and tactician, there is plenty of heat.

But in Ponting's defence, he has scored 10,000+ runs, captained a 16-0 win streak, won an Ashes 5-0 in a whitewash and captained 2 - that's right TWO - undefeated World Cup campaigns.

I love Kallis. Very under-rated. Comparing different eras is tricky too.

As for Tendulkar, a wonderful man and bat. BUT...he plays in an era of helmets, padding, covered wickets, a gazillion tests per year (although India has eased off on that front) and did fail as a captain too. However, the Tendulkar and Bradman debate will always rage on.
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Agreed, you cannot easily compare different generations, Bradman played in an era when players were not necessarily fit. And fast bowlers would certainly be faster now days. But as you said, wickets are much better and more consistent these days.

As for Ponting, he WAS a fantastic batter, one of the worlds best. But the captaincy clearly became a distraction over the past few years, and instead of taking pressure of himself to concentrate on his game by relinquishing the captaincy and/or dropping down the order, has let himself and the team languish in mediocracy. He has reached the point now where he is practically delusional when it comes to his ability. Also it really sounds like he plays favourites and created a real clique culture within the team, think of the out of form players he will continue to back, and the in form players who cannot get a look in.
 
Tendulkar will always win the Sachin v Ricky debate, however Ponting's ability to have the burden of captaincy and the fact he is a miles better fielder than Tendulkar should not be forgotten. But purely as a batsman Tendulkar wins out every time. Ponting's record is still outstanding and he should be proud that he can be compared to Tendulkar!

Test Career Statistics
Batsman (country) Mts Inns Notout Runs Hundreds Highest Average 50s
Sachin Tendulkar (India) 177 290 32 14692 51 248* 56.94 59
Ricky Ponting (Australia) 152 259 28 12363 39 257 53.51 56

ODI Career Statistics
Sachin Tendulkar (India) 442 431 41 17598 46 200* 45.12 93
Ricky Ponting (Australia) 352 343 37 13082 29 164 42.75 79


As for the Tendulkar v Bradman debate, it is utterly ridiculous to suggest Tendulkar is better than Bradman. Tendulkar has played the majority of his career on flat dustbowl pitches that are flat as roads, Bradman played on uncovered pitches his entire career and averages almost double anyone in history, Tendulkar included. Also to say bowlers were slower in Bradman's time is not fair either. Larwood was as quick as anyone in history.
 
Did Bradman ever play against McGrath or Warne, arguably the two best at their craft in the history of the game?

I'm not saying that Tendulkar was better, but he is definitely comparable, especially for their consistency.

Ponting could not carry the burden of captaincy once he lost that core group of stars a few years back, and his career has lost its lustre because of this. Still a great representative for his country, but I think his inability to recognise his weaknesses has cost him in recent times.
 
No, Bradman retired about 25 years before McGrath or Warne were born, so I don't think he faced either of them. Tendulkar certainly does not average double what everyone else does against these two bowlers.

Tendulkar has played 22 Tests v NZ and averages less than 50! I doubt NZ in Tendulkar's era is comparitavely any better than England of Bradman's era!

He also only averages only 42 against Pakistan and Sth Africa in 43 Tests against the two.

Bradman used a toothpick his whole career, Tendulkar has a 2 inch thick 3 pound bat on lightning outfields, covered wickets and smaller grounds. Tendulkar also didn't have a full time job to hold down throughout his career, and he didn't have to travel by ship for 3 months to get to England for each Ashes series.

If Tendulkar averaged 99 then you have an argument. He averages 56. End of story!
 
You can only compare like against like. As has been said Tendulkar uses a 3lb4oz bat against Bradman's 2lb3oz, wears a helmet, bats on covered pitches and his average inflated by scoring prolifically against lowly Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Even so Tendulkar is the best batsman of his time but he would have needed to have played in the same era as Bradman for a comparison to be made. We will never know so let's just say they they are both unrivalled.
 
Pfft, it's a matter of opinion.

Would Bradman have averaged double what everyone else does against McGrath or Warne?

It is impossible to know how either would have played in the others conditions, so all that can be agreed upon is that they are the best of their generation.
 
I agree, it is a matter of opinion.

However...

Bradman averaged 56 during Bodyline - the same as Tendulkar's CAREER average!!
 
I always laugh when I see another "Bradman vs Tendulkar" debate.

Average per Test innings:
Bradman 99.94
Tendulkar 56.94

Average per Test match:
Bradman 134.53
Tendulkar 83.00

Centuries per Test innings:
Bradman 0.36
Tendulkar 0.17

Yes, Tendulkar has played nearly four times the amount of Test cricket that Bradman did, but only once has he batted above No. 4 in a Test match (opened in the second innings vs NZ at Ahmedabad in 1999), whereas 56 of Bradman's 80 innings were at No. 3.
 
I just worked out Tendulkar & Ponting's average taking Bangladesh and Zimbabwe Tests out of the equation:

Tendulkar 53.9
Ponting 52.7
 
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