How much has the cost of the hobby increased?

chadjaja · May 2, 2006

Damn thats a big first paragraph. My old English teacher would kill me! ;-P

Im not looking for an argument Just. Just want to correct a few misconceptions commonly held about Vintage and one of them is the amount strored away not in circulation etc.

Benny J · May 2, 2006

You talk about old VS new in terms of how rare the cards are....and it makes me wonder. And this will sound a bit silly....

With all the serial numbered cards out there....What's to say that every card in a set serial numbered #/10 gets into circulation (i think that makes sense). What if 9 are only ever opened. For example....if i have a card # 1/10 how do i know that there have been another 9 pulled. Maybe 2 of them didnt make it into packs or were damaged before distribution???

Chad....is there any way of finding out whether all have been pulled or how many havent been?? Or any way of tracking it?? (Besides past sales on ebay??)

chadjaja · May 2, 2006

You simply don't know whats been pulled DVS. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is any way the companies keep track of card numbers or even could.

I need some Havlicek press plates and 1/1's. Now I don't know if they are still in unopended boxes of finest or just pulled and never found their way onto the secondary market. All I know is I have bought all the ones i have seen.

What worries me is when companies give out cards to collectors in exchange for other cards damaged or not available due to players not signing etc.

Take Scots Bron/Jodan dual auto. Thats numbered /25. So in theory there where already less than 25 examples of that card up for grabs in packs for us collectors. We get ripped.

Makes you wonder just how much they keep and how many of the numbered cards were packaged for sale ;-)

Benny J · May 2, 2006

It does make you wonder. Scotts example is a good one. How many cards do they hold aside for situations like the one you mentioned and if they arent used what happens to them???

hobbibox · May 2, 2006

hmmm certainly makes you wonder

justdabestcards · May 2, 2006

Thought my questions were fairly simple but I think you didn't answer some. It's ok Chad, I do appreciate your answers

chadjajaÂ® said:
You simply don't know whats been pulled DVS. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is any way the companies keep track of card numbers or even could.

I need some Havlicek press plates and 1/1's. Now I don't know if they are still in unopended boxes of finest or just pulled and never found their way onto the secondary market. All I know is I have bought all the ones i have seen.

What worries me is when companies give out cards to collectors in exchange for other cards damaged or not available due to players not signing etc.

Take Scots Bron/Jodan dual auto. Thats numbered /25. So in theory there where already less than 25 examples of that card up for grabs in packs for us collectors. We get ripped.

Makes you wonder just how much they keep and how many of the numbered cards were packaged for sale ;-)

With a # card of /10,/25 or whatever it may be, at least you know HOW MANY CARDS ARE POSSIBLY out there, regardless if they all went into packs or not. A lot easier for companies to make as much as they wanted back in the old days. They could keep/print/store as many as they wanted, but no-one would really knows for sure. This is due to ACCURATE production runs for vintage being mostly unconfirmed, unlike with cards of today which have stricter control over what is produced. I didn't even mention COUNTERFEITING which is and will continue to be a major problem as technology gets better, especially with the older cards - thats another story!

justdabestcards · May 2, 2006

Obviously cards cost more today because the quality is a lot better.

Dream34 · May 2, 2006

chadjajaÂ® said:
You simply don't know whats been pulled DVS. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is any way the companies keep track of card numbers or even could.

What worries me is when companies give out cards to collectors in exchange for other cards damaged or not available due to players not signing etc.

Take Scots Bron/Jodan dual auto. Thats numbered /25. So in theory there where already less than 25 examples of that card up for grabs in packs for us collectors. We get ripped.

Makes you wonder just how much they keep and how many of the numbered cards were packaged for sale ;-)

When a printer does a print run they print what they call "overs". Overs are printed to cover stuff ups in the job. i.eout of rego, ink spills, as well as to cover any stuff ups when being die-cut or guilotined etc. There for if Upperdeck order 100 of one card, the printers would print at least 120 cards to cover them selves. Depending on what they stuff up upperdeck could get upto 20 extra cards, now if these a stamped they might just throw out the extra 20 BUT I doubt it. I believe they use these as replacement to then cover themselves against damaged cards once packed and delivered.(as they are released later on there for decreasing the amount of detection.
If their not used I'd image they would go to a certain upperdeck workers or to their volts. (Imagine all the overs from the fleer auctions from over the years, thhis explains why there's cards out there unstamped, when their supposed to be.

My 2Â¢. Hope I helped out a little.

hobbibox · May 2, 2006

I doubt that very much at all, Ive never seen 2 of the same card stamped the same ie: 2/25 and another 2/25 They dont print overs for stamped cards if they are damaged they are just left out of packs...thats why when you get a damaged card you usually get something different in return. Im not saying they mightn't keep some behind (but they wouldnt be stamped)...say put 22 of the 25 in packs and keep 3 back for replacements but I doubt very much there are duplicates.

JZA · May 2, 2006

ive seen multiple numbered cards, on beckett a long time ago there was a thread about two people on the board pulled an amare jersey both numbered the same number, it might be a one off rarity but it happens.

Dream34 · May 2, 2006

justdabestcards said:
Obviously cards cost more today because the quality is a lot better.

As well as smaller print runs which increases the unit price of each card in the set.

If a printer has a minium run of 200 cards and
the minium cost for a minium run is $100, the card company may print on 10 of one card but they will still be charged $100 for only 10 cards. Thats where the original value comes into pricing cards and obviously today there is alot more shorter print runs

Dream34 · May 2, 2006

Shoes said:
I doubt that very much at all, Ive never seen 2 of the same card stamped the same ie: 2/25 and another 2/25 They dont print overs for stamped cards if they are damaged they are just left out of packs...thats why when you get a damaged card you usually get something different in return. Im not saying they mightn't keep some behind (but they wouldnt be stamped)...say put 22 of the 25 in packs and keep 3 back for replacements but I doubt very much there are duplicates.

Yeah mate I should have been more detailed. The cards are stamped with their number after the cards are printed and cut. They only stamp the 100 cards but their is still 20 cards left unstamped for the volts etc.

If the do stamp extra they would keep those cards of a couple of years then give them out for replacments, but used to replace different cards not the same. Thats how they get away without getting court for doubling up.
Then when the card is in circulation years down the track and it popps up on ebay people just write it off as a fake.

hobbibox · May 2, 2006

Dream34 said:
Yeah mate I should have been more detailed. The cards are stamped with their number after the cards are printed and cut. They only stamp the 100 cards but their is still 20 cards left unstamped for the volts etc.

If the do stamp extra they would keep those cards of a couple of years then give them out for replacments, but used to replace different cards not the same. Thats how they get away without getting court for doubling up.
Then when the card is in circulation years down the track and it popps up on ebay people just write it off as a fake.

If that were true mate wouldnt..... in rare cases 2 of the same card and number pop up in the community or on ebay ect?

Benny J · May 2, 2006

Good info dream...thats very interesting!! I would imagine that after a certain period the "extra" cards would be destroyed to avoid accusations of "doubling up" etc.

Dream34 · May 2, 2006

Shoes said:
If that were true mate wouldnt..... in rare cases 2 of the same card and number pop up in the community or on ebay ect?

Isn't that what I said.

RareAirShoes · May 2, 2006

Its a proven fact that older (vintage) cards, eg NBA cards produced pre 86-87 hold their value. Many of those 50-60-70's cards are embedded in people's collections and there continues to be less and less around. I cant recall the countless times that i have and many others on the board no doubt have been offered U/D 92-93 & 93-94.

The direction the hobby has gone, is by the manufacturers and the way they have manipulated their licence agreements in producing more and more different lines.

Whilst it is cheaper for the average collector to purchase a desired card, somebody along the way, probably killed themselves (financially) in busting down a box, in a vain attempt to hit the jackpot.

oz-antoine · May 2, 2006

What about the effect Fleer will have since 1/3 of the products are now gone. Less product is obviously going to have an effect on the future pricing of the key RC's.

justdabestcards · May 3, 2006

Great input everyone

RareAirShoes said:
Its a proven fact that older (vintage) cards, eg NBA cards produced pre 86-87 hold their value.

Another proven fact! I'd check that one and come back.

** one exception - 1948 Bowman.

GoMoto · May 3, 2006

All,

At the end of the day, its just a bit of card board. We pay what we think the cards worth regardless of the value it worth or is going to reach. So just enjoy the hobby.

chadjaja · May 3, 2006

justdabestcards said:
Great input everyone

Another proven fact! I'd check that one and come back.

** one exception - 1948 Bowman.

Most of the fluctuation for vintage occured in the past when information on those sets was small and miss understood. They have levelled out now that we know more and they wont go down much more if any. When the card industry had another boom in 91+ Beckett simply overpriced a lot of them and with the attitude of the time collectors paid too much. BV influences vintage pricing little these days unlike modern cards ;-)

Like I pointed out even the Russell RC lost $800 in BV since 94 but has remained the same for a long time and the price of graded ones continues to climb. I've seen a price increase for a psa 6 Russell go up $200US in he last 3 years for eg.

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