Future NBA Immortals (Bottom 10 of Best 60)

jimboiitmac · Dec 24, 2005

JZA said:
chadjajaÂ® said:

Its not a current question. Its over all time. Mavs said Dirk is the best ever and I wanted to shoot him down LOL

Nash, Dirk etc etc dont come close to Sobinis..

Click to expand...

I gotta agree with the chad on this one, sabonis certainly has a LOT more accolades to his name than any international player past or present, i think he won championships with every team he played on until his nba career, numerous olympic medals, european championships, many mvp, league leader awards etc etc. he dominated euro bball from 85-95.

i honestly reckon if he was allowed to play with the blazers in 85 when he was drafted, he could have shat all over every other center in the league (yes that includes Kareem).

i just checked out his profile. are you guys sure he was so highly thought of? Because he was drafted in the 4th round and he was the 77th pick.

doesn't sound that great.

JZA · Dec 24, 2005

well my theory is that look at the year: 1985, middle of the cold war, doubtful that someone who was just playing in the russian leagues was going to be a celebrated pick in the 1st round...i know it sounds far fetched but hey u never know how much politics is mixed with pro sports.

if in any doubt as to his achievements, check out this summaryt of his career:

http://www.interbasket.net/players/sabonis.htm

JZA · Dec 24, 2005

Trey said:
ahem...Hakeem is the best international player ever....

i think by international players we mean players who were drafted from international leagues and schools, who didnt go to high school or college in the US. Hakeem played college ball for houston.

kidd05 · Dec 24, 2005

Trey said:
ahem...Hakeem is the best international player ever....

w0ot! AGREED!

chadjaja · Dec 25, 2005

Not going to bother to preach to you if you judge him by draft position.......
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Moses · Dec 25, 2005

I don't think Sabonis should be on the list. This is a list for the NBA's greatest and although Sabonis was good when he played in the NBA he was definitely on the downside of his career and not producing like the others on the list. What he did before he arrived in the NBA is irrelevant.

jimboiitmac · Dec 25, 2005

vladlevinsky said:
I don't think Sabonis should be on the list. This is a list for the NBA's greatest and although Sabonis was good when he played in the NBA he was definitely on the downside of his career and not producing like the others on the list. What he did before he arrived in the NBA is irrelevant.

totally agreed

white_chocolate_55 · Dec 25, 2005

that is the funniest thing i've read..

payton next best player behind jordan?? spose he didn't see the likes of kemp (it was 1996) grant hill, shaq, penny etc.. many big names ahead of payton.. BUT does he mean better players behind mj without being nominated as a top 50 player?

and for lebron james to be there, his franchise is yet to make the playoffs with him... why not throw shawn bradley in too...

jimboiitmac · Dec 26, 2005

white_chocolate_55 said:
that is the funniest thing i've read..

payton next best player behind jordan?? spose he didn't see the likes of kemp (it was 1996) grant hill, shaq, penny etc.. many big names ahead of payton.. BUT does he mean better players behind mj without being nominated as a top 50 player?

and for lebron james to be there, his franchise is yet to make the playoffs with him... why not throw shawn bradley in too...

i think u underestimate how great the glove was.

Back then, he was the BEST defensive player in the league, that was when he won the defensive POY award.

He was probably the best PG in the league, he was giving you 20+ points and 8+ assists with 2+ steals, he was one of the most unstoppable and complete players in the game.

An offensive machine, but the best stopper in the league too.

white_chocolate_55 · Dec 26, 2005

but best behind michael jordan? you mustn't have seen penny's/grant hills numbers back then..

lets compare them all

Gary Payton
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 4.2 7.5 2.85 0.23 19.3 64

Grant Hill
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 9.8 6.9 1.25 0.6 20.2 46

Penny Hardaway
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 4.3 7.1 2.02 0.5 21.7 60

Now yes statistically very close, but Grant Hill didn't have a superstar sidekick in Kemp/Shaq and took the Pistons to the playoffs for the 1st time in how long? Dumars was hardly a superstar anymore... Penny played 82 games 28 games without Shaq.. Payton played with a great supporting cast with Schrempf and Kemp.. even Hersey Hawkins was a good player back then.. Now I'm not saying Payton is a bad player, because the glove was a gun in his day, but to say 2nd best behind Jordan is a bit wrong... Theres guys that deserved a look before him..

Now you might argue "it was Hills 2nd season" or "Pennys 3rd" but if your placing Payton in the top 50/60 without Reggie Miller/Shawn Kemp/Dominique Wilkens being there first.. theres issues.. Because those players numbers just kept going up and up.. and if your entering them now in the top 60 those guys are a must...

jimboiitmac · Dec 26, 2005

white_chocolate_55 said:
but best behind michael jordan? you mustn't have seen penny's/grant hills numbers back then..

lets compare them all

Gary Payton
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 4.2 7.5 2.85 0.23 19.3 64

Grant Hill
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 9.8 6.9 1.25 0.6 20.2 46

Penny Hardaway
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 4.3 7.1 2.02 0.5 21.7 60

Numbers?? Numbers don't make the player my friend. This season Gilbert Arenas is the second highest scoring PG and he gets 5-6 assists and is just about leading the league in 3's made, but does that make him a better PG than Steve Nash? Didn't think so.

Amare dominated last season, something like 28 ppg, the highest for any PF, does that make him better than TD, KG and Dirk??

As far as i'm concerned Gary Payton got the wins, he got the finals berth, he was the LEADER of the team, the best defensive player in the league and with all that down, he had one of the best all round games too and he had the numbers.

I don't care that he a good supporting cast. Everyone talks about, "WHAT IF" someone else had a better supporting cast, they would've won more games. But that's exactly it. We can keep talkin about the "WHAT IF'S" if we want, but that doesn't make a difference.

Down in the books is that the Glove's team won the most games, regardless of the players he had supporting him to help him get to the finals.

kidd05 · Dec 26, 2005

Numbers MEAN a lot you know. If you don't have numbers you might as well be in the bench of a Championship team.

white_chocolate_55 · Dec 26, 2005

ohhhh .. ok.. well dont numbers get you awards? defensive poy needs stats to get an award right? so if payton only averaged 10 points, 1steal 1 rebound, but held his opponents to 10 points would that get him an award? and numbers do mean a thing if your "the 2nd best player behind michael jordan" you need a hellavu lot of stats.. im not knocking the glove though

white_chocolate_55 · Dec 26, 2005

jimboiitmac said:
white_chocolate_55 said:

but best behind michael jordan? you mustn't have seen penny's/grant hills numbers back then..

lets compare them all

Gary Payton
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 4.2 7.5 2.85 0.23 19.3 64

Grant Hill
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 9.8 6.9 1.25 0.6 20.2 46

Penny Hardaway
YEAR RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Wins
95-96 4.3 7.1 2.02 0.5 21.7 60

Click to expand...

Numbers?? Numbers don't make the player my friend. This season Gilbert Arenas is the second highest scoring PG and he gets 5-6 assists and is just about leading the league in 3's made, but does that make him a better PG than Steve Nash? Didn't think so.

Amare dominated last season, something like 28 ppg, the highest for any PF, does that make him better than TD, KG and Dirk??

As far as i'm concerned Gary Payton got the wins, he got the finals berth, he was the LEADER of the team, the best defensive player in the league and with all that down, he had one of the best all round games too and he had the numbers.

I don't care that he a good supporting cast. Everyone talks about, "WHAT IF" someone else had a better supporting cast, they would've won more games. But that's exactly it. We can keep talkin about the "WHAT IF'S" if we want, but that doesn't make a difference.

Down in the books is that the Glove's team won the most games, regardless of the players he had supporting him to help him get to the finals.

ahhh now see.. now we're getting to my point.. gilberts team dont win as many games as pennys/hills/paytons teams have/did..

nashs team does however.. and nash gets big numbers too, he's not averaging 10ppg you know its alot more than you may realise... which must mean stats = something? otherwise he wouldnt be MVP..

Gloves teams usually got beaten in the first round too.. I recall a Mutombo holding the ball IN seattle for a first round upset.. he couldnt even contain robert pack that series.. or m abduhl rauf.. and yes amares numbers make him better than dirk, and right up there with td and kg.. you can't tell me he's not the most dominating power forward out there? if tim duncan cant stop him defensivley who will/can? my point with stats was team wins AND if your carrying a team like penny/hill was then why doesn't stats matter? 60 wins for penny is a big thing , thats 28 games without shaq.. who that year was throwing up big numbers...

chadjaja · Dec 26, 2005

wasn't saying Saboinis should be on the list as its an NBA one and he played his best ball outside the league. Never said that. Just the he is the BEST Euro ever without much doubt.

I was talking and responding to MAvs bias view on Dirk

white_chocolate_55 · Dec 27, 2005

i was always under the impression kukoc was the best euro ever.. as well as vlade and perhaps petrovic... sabonis was right up there, i loved him.. great skills..

clarkescards · Dec 30, 2005

Chad, who's this Sobonis you keep harping on about. Similar type player to Arvydas Sabonis???

8)

Yeah, it was a pity the NBA didn't get to see him sooner. Although, you do have to give Dirk his dues. He's paved the way for Euro big men to be selected with Lottery Picks. (Think Darko, Tskitishvili etc)

kidd05 · Dec 30, 2005

Saboinis.. Sobonis..

Chad mate you're slipping! If you're gonna back someone up, make sure you know how to spell his name first!

HEHEHE. :wink:

Nah Kukoc.. I'd take Dirk and Tony Parker before him anytime. Or what about Gasol? Where's Gasol from?

clarkescards · Dec 30, 2005

Spain.

Jordan95 · Dec 30, 2005

Can anyone provide a link so I can see the 50 already in this list?
Miller Time should definately be in the next 10, Im surprised he wasnt in the original 50?! The Human Highlight Film was one of the most entertaining players to watch back in the 80/90s, his dunks were fine, probably only behind MJ. I also loved KJ but thats probably only cause I was a huge Suns fan, him and Barkley were a great combination....

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