Ben Cousins missing?

Dr. Curlytek · Nov 10, 2007

There is no point saying that something is a "fact" without backing it up with evidence. Addiction of any nature is generally a bad thing, it indicates an imbalance of brain chemicals and of partaking in something much more than is socially/physically acceptable. In the classical definition of illness/disease, most would say that addiction does not fall into this category. Just because it badly effects people that you care for does not make it an illness. Is everyone on this forum ill, diseased, because they are (to some small degree) addicted to collecting cards? I don't think so...

gemini0928 · Nov 10, 2007

Dr. Curlytek said:
There is no point saying that something is a "fact" without backing it up with evidence. Addiction of any nature is generally a bad thing, it indicates an imbalance of brain chemicals and of partaking in something much more than is socially/physically acceptable. In the classical definition of illness/disease, most would say that addiction does not fall into this category. Just because it badly effects people that you care for does not make it an illness. Is everyone on this forum ill, diseased, because they are (to some small degree) addicted to collecting cards? I don't think so...

That "fact" evidence is MYSELF...

Addiction is like cancer... And it has a cure. The most important ingredient to this cure is the right support of the family and friends. If the addict dont get that support they need then it will be impossible for the disease to go away...

The support that an addict needs to recover is for his/her family and friends to have the proper understanding that their love one needs help. They need to study and go out there and investigate what is needed to be done. They will learn that it is really an illness and not just a lame excuse...

And for collecting cards, I consider this as an outlet from all the bad addiction. A person can get hooked here but at the end of the day, it is just a hobby. And if you are smart enough, your collection can turn out to be a good investment. We all need something to keep us away from all the bad addiction that is out there and this hobby has kept me away from them.

martyaud · Nov 10, 2007

white_chocolate_55 said:
I agree, I mean how do they start on drugs, recreation? experimentation? They're illegal for a reason, people play with fire, and get burnt. I don't feel sorry for them at all... People don't just become sick and feel they need to take drugs..

Ohh man.. I have a headache.. might take some speed.. that'll help yeah

Ben Cousins clearly took drugs for recreational use, meaning it was his choice to do whatever he does, now he's hooked and now he's paying for it.

- Being an alcoholic is not a disease
- Being a smoker is not a disease
- Being a drug addict is not a disease

Yes it's an addiction.. I'm addicted to chocolate, is that a disease?

Yes & No.... I say no, because to me a disease is something you can catch of someone, i.e. flu etc.... but YES because its an illness... even chocolate.

Chocolate will not have a short term effect, but if it gets to a stage like food addiction & you become 400kg, can't get out of bed, cant move... then its a prob... even buying too much cards can be an illness, if your wife/kids end up looking at an MJ auto instead of chicken at dinner time...

My stance is, if you deny you have a prob... then you get wat you deserve.... but if you admit you have a prob, then everyone should help out...

Richo · Nov 10, 2007

Maybe we should change the thread title to:
Drug addiction - A Disease or just plain stupid ???

basketoz74 · Nov 10, 2007

I feel sorry for the good people within the WCE who have continually defended and try to do the right thing by someone who has little regard for the credibility of the club, the league and the game overall.

And as Worsfold said on radio news (mix 94.5) this morning and i hope that he maintains this approach - "The party is over" at the Eagles.

At least Gardiner had the sense to leave town and at least attempt to look like he was changing his ways, Cousins can use every excuse he likes, fact remains whether illness or not, he associates with figures in organized crime, has no respect for the legalities associated with his actions, and ultimately holds no remorse or consideration for the people paying his wages, the fans who pay good money to be club members or the children who aspire to be an athlete like him.

This will go down as a career and talent wasted, and fortunately for all (AFL, WCE, Fans, Sponsors and Cousins himself) it was ended by the swift and determined attitudes of those running the league, congrats to Andy Demetriou & Co on getting the path you took right on the mark.

Now Benny go find a dark alley and some shonkey dealer to get a fix in you fool!!!!

whereiswally78 · Nov 10, 2007

I've been involved in the treatment of people and spoken to many of them ... it is NO DOUBT a disease.

It's part of a person's makeup to some degree. They usually have some other psych. disorder (eg. depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia) in the first place, that LEADS TO the drug taking. The drugs then take over.

They virtually all have some deep, dark thing in their past that leads them to it (eg. dysfunctional family, abusive relationship etc.). The difference between the healthy ones like many of us, and those that have a substance abuse problem is that we have the strength to cope, or the support (both professional and family/friends) to get us through ... they don't.

Ben may have suffered from depression; maybe he just couldn't cope with the constant scrutiny of being recognised everywhere he goes. Imagine going to a pub with your few close friends and just being constantly harassed - obviously, he felt his ONLY escape was drugs, and that is sad!

I don't like Ben Cousins; in fact, I think he's a tool, but I don't think we're in a position to judge what got him to where he is today.

gemini0928 · Nov 10, 2007

whereiswally78 said:
I've been involved in the treatment of people and spoken to many of them ... it is NO DOUBT a disease.

It's part of a person's makeup to some degree. They usually have some other psych. disorder (eg. depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia) in the first place, that LEADS TO the drug taking. The drugs then take over.

They virtually all have some deep, dark thing in their past that leads them to it (eg. dysfunctional family, abusive relationship etc.). The difference between the healthy ones like many of us, and those that have a substance abuse problem is that we have the strength to cope, or the support (both professional and family/friends) to get us through ... they don't.

Ben may have suffered from depression; maybe he just couldn't cope with the constant scrutiny of being recognised everywhere he goes. Imagine going to a pub with your few close friends and just being constantly harassed - obviously, he felt his ONLY escape was drugs, and that is sad!

I don't like Ben Cousins; in fact, I think he's a tool, but I don't think we're in a position to judge what got him to where he is today.

Nicely said!

wall4ace · Nov 10, 2007

whereiswally78 said:
I've been involved in the treatment of people and spoken to many of them ... it is NO DOUBT a disease.

It's part of a person's makeup to some degree. They usually have some other psych. disorder (eg. depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia) in the first place, that LEADS TO the drug taking. The drugs then take over.

They virtually all have some deep, dark thing in their past that leads them to it (eg. dysfunctional family, abusive relationship etc.). The difference between the healthy ones like many of us, and those that have a substance abuse problem is that we have the strength to cope, or the support (both professional and family/friends) to get us through ... they don't.

Ben may have suffered from depression; maybe he just couldn't cope with the constant scrutiny of being recognised everywhere he goes. Imagine going to a pub with your few close friends and just being constantly harassed - obviously, he felt his ONLY escape was drugs, and that is sad!

I don't like Ben Cousins; in fact, I think he's a tool, but I don't think we're in a position to judge what got him to where he is today.

can anyone come up with some hard evidence that this is a disease?i will stand corrected if so!
he chose the path he took and now he needs help for a very big problem called drug addiction,i have had friends and family die of illnesses,they dont get a choice weather they survive or which path they take(thats a disease/illness)!!

ben cousins =very bad joke...weather he needs help or not...his father is not much better either!

cheers

whereiswally78 · Nov 10, 2007

Where is the evidence that depression is a disease? We have a theory as to what MIGHT CONTRIBUTE to it ... but there is no proof.

And I'd warn everyone to think very carefully before saying that clinical depression is not a disease, as it has an incidence of our 25% of our population at some time in their life (which means there are many people on this board that would have been treated for it!).

I ask this question: Define disease, because my definition must be quite different to many of yours.

Do we have do know which nerve, chemical or organ is malfunctioning for it to be called a disease?? I personally don't think so.

mattyj · Nov 10, 2007

Whether addiction is a disease or not (i believe it not to be) you contribute it to yourself by starting with drug taking, and because of that,i have ZERO symphathy for drug addicts

Same as people who get lung cancer that smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, its their own damn fault

and Matt, when did this turn into a discussion about depression? Depression is not a choice, taking drugs, smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol IS A CHOICE

whereiswally78 · Nov 10, 2007

I understand your point, MattyJ and certainly respect it. Depression is simply an example of a disease which medicine does not fully understand yet.

I guess my point is that this is by no means a simple choice of whether to take drugs or not; and in many cases, they do not make a fully conscious decision to start ... eg. many of those I've been involved in have been in a state of psychosis, mania or major depression when they've started; and in those circumstances, its not a clear cut as many people are making it out to be.

For Wall3ace:
It's a disease. From a reference used in psychiatry and psychology worldwide ... essentially the bible in psychiatry:

Substance Dependence - a medical diagnosis as specified the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM IV) -
A maladaptive pattern of substance use , leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from the specific substances)
the same (or closely related0 substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period of time than was intended
there is persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g., visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g., chain-smoking), or recovering from its effects
important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use
the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent of recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induce depression, or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

Ref: http://www.csam.org/def.htm

I'm done, and finished!

gemini0928 · Nov 10, 2007

wall3ace said:
can anyone come up with some hard evidence that this is a disease?i will stand corrected if so!
he chose the path he took and now he needs help for a very big problem called drug addiction,i have had friends and family die of illnesses,they dont get a choice weather they survive or which path they take(thats a disease/illness)!!

ben cousins =very bad joke...weather he needs help or not...his father is not much better either!

cheers

I think its more of a personal thing that you have against Ben than asking for evidence...

An addiction is a recurring compulsion by an individual to engage in some specific activity, despite harmful consequences to the individual's health, mental state or social life. The term is often reserved for drug addictions but it is sometimes applied to other compulsions, such as problem gambling, and compulsive overeating. Factors that have been suggested as causes of addiction include genetic, biological/pharmacological and social factors.

It is generally accepted that addiction is a disease, a state of physiological or psychological dependence or devotion to something manifesting as a condition in which medically significant symptoms liable to have a damaging effect are present.

Got it from the net and here's the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction"]Addiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/Fileisambig_gray.svg" class="image"><img alt="Disambig gray.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Disambig_gray.svg/30px-Disambig_gray.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/5/5f/Disambig_gray.svg/30px-Disambig_gray.svg.png[/ame]for more explanation.

wall4ace · Nov 10, 2007

and now ya come up with ive got it against ben cousins

would matter who it was mate ben cousins or not my opinion wouldnt change!

and i respect your opinion but at the end of the day he chose his fate and went the way he did!
and if you think otherwise maybe your head is in the clouds!

cheers

bruntyblue · Nov 10, 2007

My personal feeling is we could all be like Ben, BUT most of us have the WILLPOWER to say no, 20 yrs ago I was going the same way, I did not have $3000 a day clinics or the funds to attend that type of place. Pretty easy made the choice to say no more and 20 yrs later still have not thought about using again, I say it's no disease, like Clayton said my grandfather died of cancer (never smoked in his life) that is a disease, drug addiction is a choice.

gemini0928 · Nov 10, 2007

wall3ace said:
and now ya come up with ive got it against ben cousins

would matter who it was mate ben cousins or not my opinion wouldnt change!

and i respect your opinion but at the end of the day he chose his fate and went the way he did!
and if you think otherwise maybe your head is in the clouds!

cheers

Its alright... I just thought because you mention his father as well, you have something against them... :v:

As I said before, people would only realise and accept that addiction is a disease is when one of their family or close friends get hit by it.

And your opinion is repected here

wall4ace · Nov 10, 2007

thats cool mate,just cant understand why and i know its family his father would lie about his situation over there in the US..just makes no sense at all!

cheers

basketoz74 · Nov 10, 2007

Whether it is a disease or not is irrelevant, the individual in question chose to associate with persons of ill-repute, questionable character and known to be associated with illegal activities, this has never been denied or questioned from what i have read.

And that is not a disease but a social choice, and he made that on more then on occasion knowing the potential ramafications both personally and professionally.

And that as i have said is not a disease, but the actions of an individual who thought he could cheat and be above the system both in football and social circles.

And for the sake of all good football people i think the quicker the game moves on and regards Cousins as a person of the past, the better the game will be.

basketoz74 · Nov 10, 2007

In addition todays Western Australian Newspaper states that prior to his trip to USA, in the past few weeks, he spent a period of time in Sydney, with childhood friend Fabian Quaid who he has known since childhood and is a known organized crime figure.

So disease my butt, i am sorry, he had no intention of cleaning his act up, no matter what the spin doctors say, the guy is a drug addict, associates with criminals and is out of work....check out the local Centrelink Benny, plenty of those types to hang out with....

mattyj · Nov 10, 2007

bruntyblue said:
My personal feeling is we could all be like Ben, BUT most of us have the WILLPOWER to say no, 20 yrs ago I was going the same way, I did not have $3000 a day clinics or the funds to attend that type of place. Pretty easy made the choice to say no more and 20 yrs later still have not thought about using again, I say it's no disease, like Clayton said my grandfather died of cancer (never smoked in his life) that is a disease, drug addiction is a choice.

Best post in the thread so far, you win a prize

Cancer, is a disease
Addiction, is a choice, well a choice to start using anyway

wall4ace · Nov 10, 2007

mattyj said:
Best post in the thread so far, you win a prize

Cancer, is a disease
Addiction, is a choice, well a choice to start using anyway

schweeeeet do i get a prize to matty seems my name was mentioned?

cheers

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